Risk Vs Reward 3 : Manfred Ruhmer

Manfred Ruhmer: And I was like, what should I do? So I shout out a little bit, hey! And then just turned the head. When he saw me, he was just diving down like a bomb and never seen again. So I think it was, this guy was scared at the moment. And I was also scared because I was so close. I was expecting that on a certain stage he said, sorry guys, today I don't fly. And that was it. He never flew again.

Aninder: You know, every now and then we come across someone in our sport who just loves being in the air so much that they dedicate their lifetime for this. And today's guest is no different. I'm talking about the legendary hang gliding pilot from Austria called Manfred Rumer. More than three decades of flying all kinds of wings, fixed, collapsibles, flexibles. So join us as he sits down in the third installment of Risk vs. Reward as we explore the best possibilities to explore risk, the physiological and the psychological demands of flying, and how the sport has evolved over all this period of time to offer both greater rewards and new challenges. So tune in, as I'm sure this episode offers

something for everyone who practices the art of flight in all its glory.

Manfred Rumer, thank you so much for joining us. It's an absolute honor to have you on Paragliding Atlas. Oh, thank you. Thank you for the

Manfred Ruhmer: invitation. It's the first time that I'm in such a meeting or such a conversation. I like it already. Yeah, good. Thank you. That's so good

Aninder: to see. And it's an absolute pleasure having you just before the Coupé Car. How does your days look like these days? I think they must be super hectic with all the preparations for the Expo and everything that's coming up. Yeah, we're here in Icaro because we have a stand there with

Manfred Ruhmer: the helmets. Of course, the girls, they are in charge of that business. They are quite busy. And of course, I think everything will be ready in time. And for me, I will be there with the Swift again. This is my new Swift from this year to do some flight demonstration in the afternoon. I think it's Saturday and Sunday in the afternoon with the hang gliding. There's like... It's like a window where we can demonstrate our gliders. And some possibilities, yes. That's very cool to hear. And for the perspective of our audiences, Manfred has been working with Icaro

Aninder: and is a hang gliding pioneer. Three decades in the out of flight with fixed wings and collapsible wings. Manfred, just a little bit of your introduction for those people who are only paragliders, because since this is mostly a paragliders audience, who are you and how did you manage to get, how did you manage to touch the sky with glory all this while for so long? Yeah, okay, I'm Manfred Rohmer. I'm nearly 60 years old, 59 this

Manfred Ruhmer: year. Shit. Time is bad.

And when I was a young boy, I was interested in, I don't know, probably my mother was folding some paper planes, very basic. So I started playing with that. That's how I got into aero model, model RC model, later RC model. But I was pretty much designing indoor models. They were flying like real planes with profile and so on like that. But really, I got fascinated. And then later, of course, with some RC models. And then I started hang gliding in 86. And from there on, it was like, that's cool. That's really good. And 86 was also the birth of paragliding. So that year when I started hang gliding, there was no real paraglider. So just some years later, they came along. Because I started in Austria, upper

Austria, on the north side of the Alps. So it was more hilly area. not that big mountains so the first paragliders they didn't perform well in that area just later let's say 88 89 90 they got there doing better and better and yeah i think i was already i think 87 i started small competition 88 the first austrian championship which i got through it I don't know how I did that, but I was like, oh, that's not that difficult. So in 1989, I was in the first world championship in Fiersch. And from there on, every year competing, every year going to competition until 2000 when I

stopped with class one flag swing competitions. And then I came back again and then yes and no. But it was also 2002 when I started first flying the class two gliders, the Swift, which was always fascinating to me, the technology and the possibilities. And that's how I ended up now flying also the latest generation of the Swift. I think just the fact that you're nearly 60, which is, you look much younger, just to let you

Aninder: know. And you're still demonstrating at an expo like Coupé Car. It's so inspiring to see that, Manfred. And I hope a lot of us listeners who aspire to reach that stage can. But the first thing that comes to my mind is consistency. How did you do this, Manfred? Or let's say you were fascinated with the art of flight when you were very young. There's something about folding paper planes that excites all of us. Your own creation, when it glides. Even today, I have a bunch of paper planes sitting right on my shelf in the left-hand corner here, which I just, you know, whenever I find a piece of paper, I just fold it into a plane. It's very instinctive. I got oval already about this stage here. LAUGHTER

Aninder: Yeah, because you're flying better than better. When my son was younger, of course, I teach them. And he was like in the kindergarten. He

Manfred Ruhmer: was throwing paper planes also there. And he was like the teachers there, the big ones. They said, what this guy is doing there always. After the education in free time, he was just throwing paper planes. And also he hooked up the other young kids. So that was, I think it's good to put kids into the direction just with the game, with playing and having fun and also learning what's important, why these things are flying. So the very basic, it's a good thing to start. Now, I agree. And I think the fascination is very infectious. And that's why this whole audience and

Aninder: us who are chasing the art of free flight are here today. But as I was saying, starting from the beginning of your time until now, you have pioneered and you have made your dream come true, which all of us manifest a lot of times. Usually, how have you, if you have to focus back and look at your motivation levels or making it happen or realizing all of this, what has been the key factor in you actually succeeding to live a lifestyle like this over the past, let's say, 50 years or 40 years when you actually started living life on your own terms? Yeah, I think when I

Manfred Ruhmer: started hang gliding, it was just a fascination to get in the air. I think it's generally free flying, like paragliding, hang gliding, you don't need much technology. Now it's really, there's also quite a lot of technology involved to make them good and safe and whatever. But with little money, you put your body in the air. And that's the fascinating thing. The first flights, And then, of course, when you do some a little bit longer flight soaring, starting thermaling and having that possibilities. And then especially when there are some friends around, you can share that experience. And so you can push each other pushes a little, you know. And then, of course, I started competing

quite early. And before I started really cross-country flying, I started competing. So I learned cross-country flying in the competitions. I enjoy flying cross-country by my own. But for a long time, I was just competing. You can match one to the other in pretty much the same condition. And then you learn a lot. You learn big things. That's the thing which I really like in competition. But you also have to be the competition guy. You have to be motivated. Because if people are going, yes, I want to compete, but I don't really want. But that's the wrong thing. So you really have to. I traveled a lot in the world at the end. So I have seen many places which I never would have seen when I just

fly my home base. So that's the nice thing also. So yeah, that was good times, especially at the beginning. But of course, beginning is a little bit, you have to learn. You have to be also a little bit careful not to over-push it, taking too much risk because your experience is not that high. You think, oh, that's easy. But then you sometimes get into a situation where later you can say, yeah, I was a little bit lucky and that could have been gone also quite bad. like some outlanding places or whatever, or some situations in the air, like when there are many people flying together, especially at the start. For me, the collision is a big thing. So be careful. You have to learn about it. Indeed. And I think

Aninder: you've touched upon a very important point over here that is like being careful in the beginning of your career. So let's say when you go out there, the fascination of flying itself is very overwhelming for all of us. But fascination of flying with 100 other humans in a gaggle or in a thermal is wow. That's a whole different feeling. You're in a whole different... If you're on top of that gaggle, it's nice. But if you're in

Manfred Ruhmer: between, like in the boar, it's not so much fun.

It's amazing. It's really fascinating. Yeah, the view from above is magical to look at. And I think this is where we can start with the topic

Aninder: where it's as a beginner, the fascination, the pull to be there is very strong. But it comes with a certain bit of risk. And it comes, as you mentioned, you're out there competing with some of the best and some of the ones who are not so motivated, but still want to be there. So there's all kinds of dynamics going around in that era. How do you usually make your decision-making when your experience is not so much? Because the pull, the motivation has gotten you there somehow. You've made your resources count, you've put in the money, you've bought the equipment, you've trained enough to be there. At the same time, you do not have the experience to make all the right decisions according to the best ones.

Aninder: So how can a beginner navigate such a thing while still keeping the motivation and being relevant in the competition and in its own mind? I

Manfred Ruhmer: think, as you said already, that they're trained already. It's important before joining competition that you have done already a lot of flights. You're confident. Your technique has to be good. Take off, thermal flying, especially landing in small places. So that's the basic thing of what is needed for competition. You have to know. Like with hang glider, the thing, the outlanding is not that easy in small fields. So you have to know the technique, like with the traction, how you use it. To get really in small fields, that helps a lot. And then, of course, to go to competition is to learn, to see what's going on. It's a learning process. Some people learn fast. Some people take a little bit

longer. But I never went to competition. And right from the beginning, I was like, One day I want to be a world champion. That was never the goal. It was so far away. I was thinking, if I get to reach a regional champion, that would be great. Just the little steps by steps. Then you reach that and then, then. Because I got very quick in the national team. That was also like, because I'm, let's say I, I learned quick. I learned, I was motivated. The motivation is important. Of course. So that's why I stepped up quite quick to end up in the, but also like the world, the first

world championship, I had some good days and some bad days. And of course I was learning that time. I was learning a lot. And so later I progressed better, quicker and had better constant results to end up in top position. Yeah, I think that that does sum it up a lot. But there's one big

Aninder: dilemma that personally comes to me as well. And a lot of times I've asked this to my guests who are there on the show. It's like defining the sweet spot, identifying that line between irrational fear that is holding back your progress. Taking acceptable risk where you know that, all right, I can push this, but still safely. How do you try and identify that? Gut feeling is one of the answers that I get a lot of times. But again, unless you push outside your comfort zone, it's very hard to define how much you can trust on your gut. So irrational fear versus acceptable risk. What is your take on this after spending more than three decades in the air at the top level? Yeah, I don't know how to say

Manfred Ruhmer: that. It's... The thing is, what we really have to know is we should not take risks that we get hurt and then you cannot fly the next day. So I was lucky always if I had a bad landing or a little accident, I always could fly the next day. The worst was I twisted the leg, but the next day was the last day of the competition. So I was jumping off the hill and that was okay. But then I had to stop a little while. That's one thing. And the other thing is, of course, we fly paragliders and hang gliders, which are a great machine in the right conditions. But they have their limit.

And the limit is, let's say, it's the machine itself, but also the pilot. Like in paragliding, hang gliding, certain situations, you have to react the right way. That's an important thing to know and to train. and how to react, especially in paragliding. They are stable, they are open, they are good. I did also paragliding for two years. for a long time ago. And I was nearly jumping in the competition scene as well. I had the possibility. But at the end, I was so much in hang gliding, so I did not do that step. I was thinking I should have done that, maybe yes and no. But at

the end, I never did it. So maybe it was a pity I could have done it. But anyway, there's a certain risk of the machine itself. And the other one is the pilot. And of course, the pilot takes the decisions But sometimes it's like the course is this direction and there's a bad part, especially in the Alps, let's say like this, when there are well winds and that creates more turbulence on some places where you have to go and you have to climb. And sometimes it's bad when you are there in this situation. You think, holy shit, what I'm doing, really bad turbulences and bad experience. But then when you go ahead, you complete the course, after landing, it's nearly gone. You say, okay,

that was not nice, but... No problem. So that happens from time to time. So we are quite good in just putting aside this negative experience during a flight. And a lot of this is just head work. It's what's in your mind. It's really the psychological part. It really can put you down. Or you just say, okay, that was... If you find a reason why it was so bad or it was nearly accident or whatever, we always, when we go in the air, we take certain risk. Of course, if the air is calm and the conditions are nice, the risk is very high. The risk gets higher and higher when we fly in more

extreme conditions. Then there, it's for some people, it's the limit over the limit. And for some people, it's still okay. But I... During competition, I was always even Over the time, we learned, like in this condition, we should not fly. So we canceled the day, even if it, like now, the safety standards or the safety precaution is, yeah, maybe for half of the field, it's okay. But for the other half of the field, it's not okay. So then we cancel and then we go free flying. And still, it's quite okay. So that's a good thing, not to push meteorological limits, especially wind speeds in some areas can be really a problem. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty much. I don't know. The important thing is you don't

have to get hurt. You don't have to hurt yourself because the ground is hard. It's not forgiving. It's bad. And there are too many or quite a lot of accidents that should not happen. Probably people could have avoided, but then it's too late. Yeah. broken hand or whatever. Got it. I

Aninder: think you've covered a lot of topics in here that I was coming to, but eventually if I have to sum it up, it's basically the flight envelope of the aircraft, like what conditions can the aircraft fly in? Is it able to handle this way, these kinds of winds and gusts or whatever is being forecasted and the flight envelope of the pilot, like how much trust and ability does the pilot have to handle that aircraft? Again, all of these are relative depending upon people, how they look at it. But what I do eventually understand is that there are some things which are black and white, such as forecasting. In competitions, there are organizers which are doing the decision-making for you. Free flight, of course,

Aninder: you can do that with a fair bit of background research. You can make a very wise decision on forecasting and not push the limit in that one. But what I'm wondering is people trying to push the limits and becoming a better version of themselves, can they possibly set up some safety protocols which they can try and stick with for longevity of career, longevity of competing span and all of that? Because technology, let's say, all right, you want to fly a safer wing, go ahead, buy an A glider or a mid-B glider or a two-liner, whatever your threshold is, depending upon that. Equipment, like harness equipment, you want to make sure that you're not so good at landings. Instead of going in for the paper-thin,

super lightweight harness, you can go for something with a bit of a back protection, which takes care of you. But when it comes to designing all of these things, have you, over a period of time, set some goals for you that, all right, this is my comfort zone. I'm not going to push it until I actually succeed in becoming very comfortable in that one. And then I will explore outside this envelope that I've created for myself. Yeah,

Manfred Ruhmer: I can. In this case, of course, I can only talk about hang gliding. I had the luck or the possibility to come to a manufacturer, EcoRoad, this time for more than 30 years now. And I had the possibility to bring my own ideas and the design and to optimize the glide. And also I had to quickly understand what makes a glider safe and not safe anymore. Still, let's say with the hang glider, every certified glider, let's say even the safest glider, which I don't know which glider should it be. It's possible to go up, make a whip stall, push out and you can tumble everywhere. even with the bad certification rules. So that's a system problem of the wing and the low CG and the CG you can move so much because

it's bedshift control, which is easy, nice to fly and it's fun, but there's some limits. And there's the other limit, which in the design you can... you have to understand how it works but let's say a swept wing like a hang glider with that kind of profile that has a certain negative momentum of the profile itself it needs then with full tide which she a minimum of twist to to compensate that let's say negative moment profile sections of the wing and that's the limit so when you fly full tide with she at higher speed And you get unloaded, like usually we fly with 1G and turbulence more or less. But when you get unloaded, the twist has to stay there. So the glider will not... Sometimes it happens still

with some gliders, they are older. The regulation is not there, not checked, or the people don't know. But I can tell, let's say, on takeoff, I can look at some high-performance glider. Okay, put on your VG, and I can see by the eyes how big is the war shot on the... standing because it's like a flying situation, complete weightless, let's say like this. So I can say if this glider is still safe on the safe side or not. Then sometimes I tell to explain to guys, listen, in certain situations, this is not so fun. This could be dangerous. Because what happened can be that you fly faster, let's say 60, 70, 80, you get unloaded, the twist goes down. It's like pushing forward on a sailplane and then it starts a

negative loop and you cannot do anything because you get more and more weightless. And then you make, let's say, a high speed tumbling. Oh my God. This one you can avoid absolutely with the right design elements. So you can fly even in strong turbulence at higher speed and you have a stable, good, safe glide. So that's the thing that is very important, let's say like this. Otherwise, because even you could fly a glider without dive sticks and this tip limitation for the sail outside. But pretty much, even in bad conditions, just with one key of weight, you create that natural twist and the glider still flies, still is safe. Like the old Rogalo types, which they had no of this safety things. So

over the years they understood the constructors, the manufacturers. But also, of course, then the certification that took care about this problem. So if you have a certified glider, the glider in this way is safe. But still, a hang glider, you can tamper every hang glider if you want. If you do something wrong in aerobatics or some stupid things, it's possible so that's still the it's very nice to fly the hang glider super nice but there's this limitation from the design and there's this limitation from the design the paraglider it still can collapse if the pilot is not aware and reacting quick enough so That's the limitation of the, they are super nice to fly, safe, I would say, but sometimes they

have the limitation. When I fly the Swift, for example, or I don't fly a sailplane, you don't have these problems. You have other problems. Let's say a plane, Without the engine, outlanding for them is a big problem, like in fields. So when there are people around, there was once we were joining the sailplane club. We had a bunch of people, hang gliders and sailplane pilots. So their stories was outlanding and our stories was like bad turbulence. Outlanding for us is not a problem. So everybody, every sport has their own problems. Indeed, indeed. I think

Aninder: we all have our poison of choice, which we love. But anyways, I think while we are talking about this, first of all, I should clear for my audience is Swift. When Manfred mentioned Swift, it's a hang glider. So if you Google up Swift hang glider, you will see the beauty of the machine that it is. It's a class two hang glider because we have like class one flexible. Class two is the hang glider. You still... have to be able to

Manfred Ruhmer: take off and land with your foot launch and foot landing in middle wind or nearly middle wind that's the definition and the rest is you can have aerodynamic control you can have span 20 meter span if you want so there's no limitation and and there you can really make the best high performance hang glider this way it's not you're not hanging you're sitting inside your your you're attached to the wing quite well so you don't move much so it's in in turbulence here it's very safe so i like it a lot to fly in strong conditions It's very relaxing compared to a hang glider in strong condition alone. When I fly alone, I want to enjoy a lot. When I was flying in competition and it was bad, I was not alone. There

were many people around. So that's also a psychological factor which helps. If I would fly along in bad condition, I'm going to land. I don't enjoy that. But in competition, it's something else. So you have to be the combination guy. That doesn't matter. I'm not alone in this bad situation or in this turbulent. Quickly, while we're talking about this, Manfred, have you had a certain way of preparing yourself

Aninder: mentally or physically when you're navigating high risk, high reward situations like that? Let's say competing, it's rough. You have a whole tribe of pilots going out there and chasing glory. So how do you navigate high risk, high reward in terms of preparation with yourself over the past years? I think it's a lot of relating of your experience, of what you have gone through, what you have done and what you have experienced.

Manfred Ruhmer: There has been a situation where I said, okay, for me it's too much. I don't go back because sometimes in competition you go there, very bad place, very bad situation. Somehow you get out of it, you climb out again. come back and then you should go there again. It was a smaller competition. I went down landing. I went for the beer. I had fun. But funny that the local guy that years before He was quitting competition because for him it looked too much north wind, too much two-wheel land. So when you're on the ground and you see the situation, like in the Alps, you fly in the south side of the Alps and there's up there at higher level, there's north wind situation. And then higher cloud base, you can

expect what's coming. This guy, he was young. He was a very good pilot. He was also in the national team. That was years ago. He dared to say it because when we rigged the glider, he was always looking up at the sky. I was watching him and he was like, not really. Let's set up the glider and get ready and let's start that competition. On a certain stage, he said, sorry guys, today I don't fly. And that was it. He never flew again. a competition outside of his club competition this region competition later i said for me it's too much but he knows the place better so he

changed the other side of the well as soaring and then he did the course even in this bad condition and the girls down there they were like yeah

so it was like he was still a good pilot but just competing on his that that was just i remember that this scene from this special guy which was a very good fellow young and he had somebody he had some when you are young and you think oh i can do everything yeah you feel the mental things is that much but then you have some bad experience in the air and then you think later oh shit that could have been worse and then of course that's in your head And then from experience, oh, today is probably not a good day to fly. And then you have to make a decision. I go for it or not. And then it's

your personal decision, of course, if you say, no, for me, no, it's too much. It's today I don't fly, for example, of course. But I would say in competition and especially in good big competitions, the meat director or the people that decide the task, they look at the weather forecast, everything. So they try to protect their pilots. to make it safe and fun for everybody. Indeed. And I think one thing that comes to my

Aninder: mind is that a lot of us can depend upon the knowledge that is given to us by people who are making decisions for us in such a setting. But using strategies to make split-second decisions, let's say when you were out there, you tried going to this location which was not in your comfort zone, you came back and then going ahead there was again not worth the reward that you were getting. so staying calm and making a decision under these kind of situations do you recall any specific way that you've been handling this over a period of time and has it evolved as you have grown or as the technologies have had like how has this been a part of your flying career over the past years that you have grown as a pilot no i

never have done specific i don't know programs or or whatever it's Also there, it's all in the experience you gained. And of course, sometimes

Manfred Ruhmer: to take risk, there are two different kinds of risk. The risk that you outland, you do bad. So risky decision during flight, you end up low and you don't get up anymore. It could work or sometimes it works to get at the better spot a little bit earlier, lower, that pays off. So that's one kind of, this is the risk. If it doesn't work, you're going to land and you're going to lose your competition or your championship or whatever. And the other risk is risking flying into areas where the landing possibilities are not good and you get hurt at the end. Having a bad landing or outlanding goes wrong and you messed it up completely and you cannot fly the next day. You are in hospital. So this one, this is, I

think, the two biggest. And the other thing, of course, the risk of taking off in bad condition where you should not fly. When you fly alone, that's your own business then and you should know what you do. If everybody says, ah, today, maybe it's not good to fly, and you go up, fly, and then you have some consequences, like coming down with the parachute, that was not a good move. Indeed, indeed. But it is so hard to

Aninder: predict. A lot of times, I myself have personally found it hard to navigate where ground suck is a real one. People around you, or some people saying that, hey, No, no, no. When people around you say that, hey, you should not fly because it is outside their comfort zone. So they just tell you. And then those are the times you have to believe in yourself more and say that, sorry, I respect your opinion. Here you have

Manfred Ruhmer: to, especially when you are not flying so long, you should listen to the good guys. Not the guys that talk a lot, because they probably are not the best. You should know who is flying a lot, who has the experience, who is good, and you should more connect to these guys. In flying sites, there's the social side. People are coming together, have fun, and then they go flying. And there are also some sometimes more the competing side also from some guys. So they're pushing each other to make a little bit longer. And yeah, it's of course you have to learn and you have to gain experience and you can read many books if you want, but you have to to learn it on your own also. You can learn a lot, like theoretically

reading a lot, also psychological things or whatever. But you have to be there and confront yourself with the situation and then make your decisions before flight or during flight. And also what is important after flight analyze your decisions and what you have done wrong so you learn all that's the important thing. Indeed. When you talk about identifying the kind of pilots whom to take advice from, as a new

Aninder: beginner, as we were talking just before the show began, that it's almost impossible to know because, first of all, you're taking baby steps in a brand new dimension that you've never entered as a human. Like, we're used to walking, we have a little bit of experience testing the waters with swimming, but flying... is something which overwhelms us so much in the first few hours that for someone who's giving us the advice and someone who's trying to keep us safe, at least when a student goes to the course and signs up with a teacher, it's like that teacher is inherently taking care of my life right now and he's making the decisions which will decide how safe I stay in this brand new dimension.

Once you're outside the school, you're discovering the community on your own, you're going to social sites where people are just showing up, and then there are other places where people are competing and pushing each other. Identifying senior pilots with good advice, that is a very hard thing to navigate, and I do understand that there might not be a direct answer to this one. But how does one identify a good advice giver and a bad advice giver or somebody who just likes to brag? Because everybody loves gratification. I'm not going to hide this from the show right now. Everybody loves getting attention that, oh, my God, I've been flying. Even if they've been flying for 100 hours and they're

Aninder: flying for 10 years, like they've had 100 hours in 10 years, they will just love talking about and getting all the attention that comes with it. So as a new beginner, someone who's fascinated, you've done the hard work to reach the early 10 hours or 20 hour stage. How do you find the good ones, man? That's so hard to figure out. I don't know how. That's a good question. I think it's, of course, in the school, the beginning school

Manfred Ruhmer: was quite quick. It was like some flights and then you are free. Now you have to do much more high flights. So, of course, your instructor is First, it's the person you have to trust. Of course, there are good instructors, not so good instructors. And the instructor, they take it really serious and not so serious, let's say like this. That is something you will find out later. How was your instructor? That's the thing. But usually, I trust people and say that they try their best to give the knowledge to the students. And then, of course, after many flights, when they are free, It depends on the club, on the people that are there. There are people who say, oh, there's a new special in hang

gliding. But we have a new student. Oh, yeah, welcome. So, of course, you help them. And I don't know how it is in paragliding because it's more industry, like teaching, making more students in some places. And I don't know. I don't know how it is in general. But I think to start... To get into a club where people are flying already for many years, you will find out quite quick who are the guys that are flying good regularly cross-country and always, let's say, on the safer side, never get hurt. If there's a guy around with some broken bones from time to time, probably it's not the right person to ask really good advice. Fair enough. What I wonder is that I think about this a lot because

Aninder: unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know, it has given me a fair bit of life experience. But learning this sport, I have come across some instructors which were absolutely magical to share knowledge. Top of the line, willing to give you all that they had and very easy to talk to. And then there are some instructors that I've come across which don't even know how to fly themselves in our teaching. I'm not kidding. For real that I have experienced. Yeah, I noticed also in hang gliding, it's still it's one thing is also age sometimes that they were flying years

Manfred Ruhmer: ago, a lot more. And like, like, The age comes and then, I don't know, they have some problems with their health. They're still teaching, but they cannot really show the students anymore how to do it correctly. They can tell them what to do, but the important thing is also that people, the students, get shown how it's done, how it should be. That's an important thing. And also in hang gliding, we have some instructors that don't fly anymore. And even when I started flying, My instructor at that time, she was a very good teacher to tell how to do it, but I never have seen her really flying. She was stopping flying already. And so I think that's, of course, that's not the best thing. The best thing would be that the

teacher tells you and shows you how to do it. If I have to sum it up, do you think a person should just look for how passionate the teacher is about

Aninder: flying and not about money or not about filling the nine to five hours? Because passion does teach a lot and speak a lot about a person. So if you see a teacher still passionate about getting in the air and trying to learn himself. Of course, of course. It's about the passion. It's about

Manfred Ruhmer: the passion of flying. Yeah, it's of course that you have to see if that is your business, the money, the income. That's another thing. But the first part has to be the passion. And you can see before you enter school, you can get some information from other pilots that have done the school there and what's their thinking. But sometimes, especially in hang gliding, there are not many schools around. So you have to go there. Otherwise, the next goal is 2-5-8. It's like this. When hang gliding, the school situation is quite bad. Paragliding is probably much better. You have a little bit more possibility to choose. I think that's for the very beginning. It's something, of course, people should find

out beforehand. and not when it's a little bit too late or when they already started. And then they find out, oh, probably this school was not the best choice. But it's everything in life. First you trust and then at the end, it's like you have some workers on your house and they do a good job or a bad job. So, you know, you go to a mechanic and... Damn, that's a tough one. That's such a tough one indeed. But it's so true. You

Aninder: cannot know how good he'll fix your car until you actually get in the car. You can only tell after days, weeks or whatever, months, and you find out

Manfred Ruhmer: if they have done a good job or not. I think to sum it up, like having testimonials or reviews and everything, that is one way. But another

Aninder: way is to ask your instructor for his flight log or her flight log.

Yeah. Show me how much time you spend in the air and how much time you spend on the ground, and then I'll decide whether you're worth going. This makes sense, Manfred, because as I was telling you, I think about this a lot. And when it comes to imparting education in real world, in other forms of human existence, Take any university lecturer, any high school person, anyone who is helping the younger generation grow or learn the craft. They have to write PhDs. They have to go through years of schooling on how to become an instructor. And in the art of free flight, we are letting people teach. with almost no experience. You don't have to pass any hard exams. You don't have to prove your skills. You just have

to, like... I can speak about Norway because I live here, and the requirement to be an instructor is 60 flights in paragliding. And it shocks me beyond measure. 60 flights is a joke when it comes to learning the massive landscape that is there. And it's almost impossible to come to terms that... When it comes to being a teacher in every other aspect of human life, you have to go through insane amounts of research and training to be able to do that. And in this situation where the risk versus reward is literally life and death, You're just doing it without any supervision, without any legalities, without any kind of proper framework. And yet it's a growing sport. It's like people are spending

money and making it happen in their lives. It's scary, to be honest, sometimes to look at. Oh, I agree. It's also that the person itself, that

Manfred Ruhmer: they are like... They want to give their experience. They want to teach. And the others, they want to fly and to do competition. And maybe later, they want to teach. I did also like 94, I think 30 years ago. I said in Austria in wintertime, I want to do a course, hang gliding teacher course. And already in Austria, 30 years ago, there's a hang gliding teacher. Nobody's asking for it. We do paragliding teacher. That's why I started paragliding was serious to get accepted because at that time it was already a minimum requirement experience. You have to show the commission that you're able to do certain maneuvers so that you get accepted. So at the end I became paragliding teacher and then later hang

gliding teacher just doing something. But at the end I never really needed it because I'm not a teacher pilot. Maybe it's wrong. Probably I could be a good teacher as well with all my experience. Let's see in the future maybe. I was helping here now also here in Italy in Labeno to the flying side. We had a hang glider in school but now since many years not anymore and I was helping that was quite a fun. I liked it. Yeah. Let's try

Aninder: and address the elephant in the room from the other side, from the perspective of the instructors. It just crossed my mind. The first thing is, nobody likes to say that I'm a bad teacher or I'm a bad flyer. It's almost impossible to put it on yourself that, okay, I don't fly well or I don't know how to...

Or even yourself. Nobody likes to tell, unless, as you said, you're competing, you can say that, okay, I'm a bad competition pilot yet, but I'm improving. So nobody likes to admit that. But one thing I think we can... Not everybody can win. That's the thing. There's only one person

Manfred Ruhmer: that can win a competition. Yeah. Of course, before other people win, I tell, okay, I win the competition again. Yeah. Yeah. But what I'm

Aninder: wondering is, should a person look back at themselves and say that, when can a person decide that they are ready to impart knowledge to the coming generation? Like, when should a pilot know that finally they have enough skills and experience that they are safe for the community when they go out there? It's always, even very good pilots still can learn a little bit here and there from other people just looking. And now with

Manfred Ruhmer: the internet and having good footage and videos available, you can learn already a lot there, which years ago was not possible. You could learn from theory, from book, or there was not much to look at it. You just can look at it at other pilots. And when you are at a very good level that you can say for yourself, I know how to do it, what's important, the technique I know, and I can teach that to younger people. But also, if you are not from one day to the other teacher, go to a school, help them find out what the teaching technique is, and you learn from them also. You

have experience already when you went to the flying school, your flying school, and you learn. So you remember what they did and what was the procedure. how the teacher learns you so that that experience already you have when you're at the stage when you're a very good pilot and you want i think you also you have to be the person teacher person that wants to give the knowledge to younger people to new people again that's one thing but i don't know it's it's it's important that the teacher or the becoming teacher know how good they are they are still oh here's a weak point in this technique i have to improve that and to get a really good stage and you can then show the students how to do it and especially

explain it also Makes sense. I know all the questions that I've asked you in the past one hour are not the easiest ones to answer, but I love your

Aninder: honesty. It's good to talk about it because usually we don't go too much in this direction of photography. talk about how was your flight and how

Manfred Ruhmer: was it there and here and that's it yeah but of course I have to remember when I started hang gliding how was it how you also have to as a long years flying experience pilot you have to get into imagination for the students they have no idea how to get back in their mind and start again it's not that easy because for you it's like a You do this and that. It's very easy. It's logical. It's normal. But for the beginner, it's a what? It's like, what is he talking about? They have to learn that. I totally resonate with that because I'll tell you what, I'm six years into flying

Aninder: almost 400 hours under the paraglider, which by no means, I'm not saying I'm a very experienced pilot. I'm still learning the craft. And when I am designing the shows for people like you and other people, I find it hard to go back to the beginner perspective that I was because my way of thinking was, was very different when I was starting the flight. And after all of these experiences, it changes a lot. So I think you touched upon a very important point there that if you want to impart knowledge to someone who's an absolute new beginner, try and put their shoes on and try and have their state of mind. Visualizing is absolutely not easy. That's just think back how when you started, what was your feelings?

Manfred Ruhmer: What was your problems, your fear? And how did you learn that? Yeah, I think that's important thing to get back to this stage when you started and so you can understand what the students, because students are not the same. The good one picks up quick and the other one takes longer. And probably there are some hopeless, but they are never hopeless. Even they have the chance, the right to learn and to become volunteers.

Aninder: Indeed. I think anybody who has entered the realm of flight is a blessed one out of these 7 billion on the planet. I think we are living in just

Manfred Ruhmer: exciting times, let's say like this, because to have this possibility, it's just not many years ago. Very true. There was no way to do it. Very

Aninder: true. Manfred, we are almost running out of time. But before on the closing section of storytelling, I quickly want to touch upon the technological aspect, because you are somebody who has seen these sports evolve from their very beginning. And three, four decades in the game, technologies have changed greatly. Although the competition is growing a lot in the manufacturer's market in paragliding, and hang gliding has been a little slow for various reasons. But Where do you see the technology going in time to come? Do you think technology is an essential factor in making it more safer, or is it just making it more expensive and the marketing is about safety? What's your take on this

topic? A hang glider will be always a hang glider. Let's say the Class 1 or the paraglider will be pretty much always the paraglider. But

Manfred Ruhmer: especially in paragliding, there's been... big development from the beginning and then they fly amazing now and park and everything you put them in the cars and so it's it's really a great thing and now with this light materials you go up the mountain this is just a little weight and fly down there like the excel competition that's one example push to push that technology in this way still very good paragliders, but lightweight and safe also. And that's quite amazing, which direction that it went. And of course, when it comes to technology and material, single material, with the certification progress, there's also a load test required. So it has a certain minimum strength that's important.

So you are sure that the glider will not break up in the air. but of course there have been people modifying things and putting them into danger and then just by doing stupid modification they cut them off the harness and they were like free falling it's also not good When you do some modification, you should ask some people with some knowledge what could be the consequences doing some modifications. That's especially for competition pilots. I think the average pilot that they are happy to get the material tested, good tested material, and they are fine, that they enjoy and that they will not do modifications. Modification thing is just for some few people, but they should know

what to do. But of course, the safety standards there, I would say it's quite good. It's quite good. I would say that there's, of course, there's still a little problem with the designs, paraglider, hang glider, that they are not completely 100% safe gliders by their design. But the biggest part, I think it's the pilot. It's the pilot decision, pilot error. So I think the standards or material safety standards is quite high. It's quite high. It's also not possible for a manufacturer and they do a bad product and then they have problems. They have accidents because then it's a small world. It's the voice spreads out that week and oh, this guy doesn't do it or this equipment has some

problems. So I think it's also in the favor. It's very important for the manufacturer to make things right. And what actually is possible with the technology without exceeding a certain cost. It's also a cost factor at the end. Do you guys have any visualizations for people like

Aninder: you who have seen the technology evolve since the beginning? And do you have any ideas how and where is it going? Like what next is coming up in the art of free flight for us as pilots and consumers? Yeah, that's interesting to know.

Manfred Ruhmer: The development will always go on. Even in competition, there are still little steps ahead. 20 years ago we said, the gliders are so good, it's so hard to make them better. But still, it's still possible. For competition, it's quite important to have drag reduction. It's just what creates drag. If you can minimize that, it gives you more performance. But I think that everybody that is doing serious competitions, manufacturers, they understand that they're going this way. When I started hang gliding competition, drag good airfoils, good harnesses, it was an option. But everybody had the same, pretty much the same. So it was little step by step. Oh, this one has done that

here and there. So that's why he's gliding better or can glide faster. But that's in every sport where there's aerodynamic involved. If it's motorsport, sailplane, hang gliding, it's the same. The physics is there and that's the good thing. And from the material side, if material could be lighter again, it's already amazing the paragliders which light material they use and they fly good with all this technique inside the glider. Quite amazing to reduce also the lines. That's a good thing. And I think it will not stop. But as for a certain type of tank glider, paraglider, there will be a limit somewhere. And maybe we're already a little bit closer to the limits, but it's really possible to minimize

things from the material and from the track. But I think it's still, you never say it's now, that's it. We cannot do it. That's bullshit. Wow. I

Aninder: think staying curious is the only way to find out. So time will tell. And I think on that note, Manfred, we have had a very holistic conversation on the topic of risk versus reward. I cannot thank you enough for being so open and honest about it. Thank you as well. yeah before we close manfred the best part of the show that is if you can share one flight one experience that comes to your mind that has stuck with you for your life from past decades of experience i think our audiences are very interested in that and because this has the highest listenership out of the whole episode so yeah i don't know which one that there are so many flights or so so many flights and experience and of course I think one

Manfred Ruhmer: good example is when I did the record flight 2001 with the hang glider, staying more than 10 hours in the air, doing really long, long flight, breaking the record landing and still being so fit. I could have flown for another four or five hours, just running out of daytime. That was very special. You will never forget. Even a long time ago when I was flying with some friends at my home place in Austria, it's just a hill for soaring mostly. And usually we have this, more and more to the south, there are bigger mountains. So there are also eagles. So when you fly there, sometimes you meet them, fly with the eagles. That's always something special. But it's very rare they are coming out to these

foothills. And I had once this experience that at the end, it scared me. And it scared the bird a lot. Because I was soaring on a certain height. There was some good wind. Then below the bird coming, we have this smaller, like, buzzards, something. We have that in that area quite a lot. Okay. Not eagles. All right, so smaller eagles, let's say. Yeah, they're little. I don't know in German. And I was like, oh, here it is.

Then he was coming up and wow, that's a big one. So at the end, that must be eagle. So it was a lonely guy, a lonely eagle that was just checking out the area, whatever. And I was just, he was just in front of me and lower. And I was in the back. So I said, okay, now I have the altitude and the glide path so I can come from behind. And so I come closer. And this eagle was just, I could see him like hanging there and looking around with the head, but he could not see me coming from the back. So at the end, I ended up, I don't know, two or three meters. And I got scared. This guy is not

seeing me. What's going on? And what should I do? So I shout out a little bit. Hey! It just turned the head. When he saw me, he was just diving down like a bomb and never seen again. So I think this guy was scared at the moment. And I was also scared because I was so close. I was expecting that. But of course, they don't have natural hunters. So they should not be scared that someone attacks them. Yeah. very interesting this is the first i remember but there are so many there are so many situations so many nice flights enjoyable and it's landscape like the alps like high

alps high mountains area where you never would go by feet or you never be there if you don't fly it so that's something really special yeah indeed

Aninder: i think but this is the first one of the one of the very few times i've heard a human spooking avian or aerial bird so i think you definitely got a special experience there but i think on that note manfred we have reached the limit of this episode heartfelt thanks for sharing everything so honestly and for taking out time for your super busy schedule with the coupe car coming up and all the excitement that is going in will you be there I hope I can. There's a lot to do with the podcast, but if I am, I'll definitely come by, say hi, and we'll talk more

about sharing the art of flight and the joys that come with it. Maybe we have a beer. Sounds like a plan, Manfred. A beer with a pilot is always a blessing. Good. It was nice to share some thoughts with you and all the best for your show in the future. Thank you.