Risk Vs Reward 1 : Philipp Zellner

Philipp Zellner: I remember one time in Guatemala, I fall in my lines and then I just hardly open my rescue and there was no ground. Then we had to spend the whole night, I think 24, 28 hours till the chopper come. We have to spend there on the mountains. It was crazy. It was for him super painful sometimes. But in the end, it was a story I will never forget. There was a bear 20 meters next to me. There was one bear and the bear also realized me. and he turned around and then he's then there was a tree lying and then he's

standing on the tree like this was looking me like and then i was looking him i'm like oh i want to talk a little bit about your inspirations philippe have you had mentors in the sport have you like how has your teachings been what are the pilots that you have looked up to and how has that journey been for you Yeah, actually I had some very good mentors. They were flying on all these crew competitions, so they were on the top

Philipp Zellner: in the earlier days. Philipp

Zellner, thank you so much for joining Panagliding Atlas Man. So good to see you one more time this year. How is life treating you these days?

Philipp Zellner: Yeah, it's good these days. I'm back home in Austria. Just came back one month ago from India, so everything is good. Yeah. Have you had a lot of

airtime these days? I remember when I met you there, it was just like a lot of mixed flying days with a lot of thunderstorms and everything happening. So how has the season been for you this time around? Yeah, this year was not that good than last year. Last year, I think, was more

Philipp Zellner: flyable days in India. But it's okay. There is also other things to do what I like, like I can fly. So if you have not the whole day, you do some I can fly sort of. we fly to the hot springs relaxed there is many good things to do i think just for the perspective of our audiences how long

have you been going to india man because it seems like india better than indians so it's like what's with you and india man like how did this come into you and how long has it has the romance been going so strong I'm pretty much sure it's more than 10 years now. Maybe even 11 or 12 years.

Philipp Zellner: All right. Yeah. And how did this strike your mind? What curiosity started pushing you to India that it was like 10, 12 years in a row of

pushing? When I was flying tandem for the company, then a friend of mine, he told me, oh, let's go to India. It's a very nice place for flying, gross

Philipp Zellner: country. But then I say, yeah, but I fly Akron. And he said, yeah, you bring your Akron glider. And it's also okay. This is how it starts. And then I come first time in India and I straight fall in love with the place. I don't blame you, man. It's quite a mystical place to be in. And of

course, the endless possibilities that the mighty Himalayas offer. You are no stranger to that because you explored them in and out. So yeah, the topic of bringing you on board this show today is to navigate the topic of risk versus reward. And of course, you have navigated the risk versus reward spectrum in a very successful manner so far in the big mountains in the Himalayas. Before we actually delve into this or dive into the whole scenario, if you can just tell us a little bit about how many hours do you have under your belt and with an acro background, just a small little introduction about you and your paragliding. Of course, the Indians know about you, but I think the world needs to know as well. So

just for the audience's purpose. Yeah, actually in the beginning I started with acropara gliding and I actually make a very fast progress.

Philipp Zellner: I think I flew one year, then I made Helico. After two years, I flew Infinity. Those years were one of the difficult maneuvers.

Then after a while, I started to go to India for cross- country. I think this makes me feel safe on the cross-country gliders because you know what the glider is doing. Got it. So when you say that you made a decently fast progress and you went at it from the beginning, what kind of mindset

did you set out with? How did you start your art of flight journey, basically? Yeah, actually, I just spend all my time, what I have, I spend

Philipp Zellner: on flying. And I went every day up, even if it was after working. And I see I can catch the last cable car, I went up for the last run and then I just did one run. But I try to go every day and even... I had actually a good job. I was working for men for everywhere, for everything. And my boss was very nice, actually. And he asked me, hey, Philip, you have time next week? You have this and this work? I say, I looked on the weather. I say, oh, no, I have no time. And then he say, OK, I call you in the weekend. So like this, I got lots of free time for flying. So this was very good. Do you want to

share your fascination for flying? Like basically what kind of gets you excited about it? Because all of us have that very intimate feeling that pulls us towards the sky and wants us to keep us there. And I've seen the ones who have pushed it from the beginning have quite an interesting story to tell. So what was your drive that eventually got you into this sport and eventually made you pioneers? Yeah, actually, some friends

Philipp Zellner: got me in before I was lots of motorbiking. And then I stopped because I got a little bit too mad. So I said, okay, I have to do something else. And then he told me, oh, my uncle has a flying school. I said, oh, okay, nice. And then maybe two weeks later, I started the course. But yeah, I think if you spend a lot of time in this, what you like, and the good thing is if you're up in air, you forget all the other things around you. kind of meditation. And I think this is very nice because you don't think about what's happening tomorrow. You're just in your element, no? When you

like this, you're just there and going to enjoy and yeah. I think I resonate with that curiosity of yours because flow state, as a lot of

people explain, or basically the pure joy of doing something that kind of engulfs your brain and everything in it to make it happen is very rewarding in itself. And I was reading some articles about you online and it said you're into slacklining and now, as you said, motorcycling and stuff like that. So I believe you have been chasing these kind of feelings for quite a while, even before the aerial sports came into your life, is it? Yeah, it's also nice, no? Adrenaline, it's more or less, it's a good track,

Philipp Zellner: no? 100%, man. 100% agreed. But talking about risk versus reward and considering the spectrum of risk versus reward to yourself, as you have

changed disciplines and as you have grown in your mind and in your body have you ever felt the need or have you ever felt the want to change your perspective to risk versus reward be it slacklining be it motorcycling be it paragliding or are you still in the same zone like how has that side of the aspect been i feel like i'm still in the same zone i like to in one opinion you have to take some risk if you want i get better and this is what you want to do but it's also let's say with aqua flying if you play always the same maneuver after a while it's getting boring so then you want

Philipp Zellner: always more it's always the same now with the twisted stuff it's also it's you try and then it's like wow it feels good it feels different and then you get more interest because if you do always the same then at one point it's getting a little bit boring and then it's like of course it's not bad if you do always the same it's also in a good way if you don't push too much this is always the borderline how much you push you should also not push too much and be stupid yeah Indeed. I think like my perspective, if you start thinking from the new beginner's point of view, because I

remember when I was starting to learn paragliding, I started doing forward launches and I started doing reverse launches. And somehow forward launches were just very risky or they seemed very risky to me. I was like in reverse, I just feel very good. And somehow my brain was telling me to stick to my comfort zone and not do forward launches anymore and try and stick to reverse ones. And I see a lot of pilots in our sport sticking to reverse launches and not pushing the risky spectrum of perfecting a forward launch or navigating towards it. So do you want to touch upon the topic that how eventually do you find that a person is ready to go ahead and try something new, even though it is outside your

comfort zone, even though it might seem a bit tough, but it is still a necessity because once you know how to do a forward launch, it is anyway super helpful and makes you a safer pilot. And I think this can be mapped in doing full stalls or doing big wing overs or getting into acro and all of that, because every time you will have something which keeps you safe, which keeps you happy. And the other one is it seems a little bit risky, which seems a little bit dangerous, but eventually is safer in the longer run if you do actually make to accomplish it. The other thing

Philipp Zellner: is to don't push too much in the beginning because if you're... I have many friends they pushed a lot and they are very good with mix driving or something like this so they're a little bit hard guys and then they push too much and then the other one crashed in the spiral or something like this so... it's like you should not push too much especially in the beginning you need a lot of flights this is the most safest thing that you can do you go every day up or you make flights so in the beginning you don't think too much about pushing just to feel comfortable and if you feel

comfortable and you get the feeling okay i can try a little bit more Okay, good. A little step. It's better to do not like you do a full step. You do a half step, then it's even more safe than you do the full step, I would say. Got it. So let's say define these half or full steps from let's say my

dilemma was that is it right time to push to a two liner or to upgrade to a two liner from a three liner? And even there are times when you're going on full speed bar through thermals. You're flown in India. You know how the thermals are. And there are times when three liners can scare you a lot in thermals. But at the same time, every other duration, the whole duration of the flight, which is not being flown in thermal, you're very comfortable on your wing. And you feel like, yes, you're totally ready to upgrade to a two-liner. But then you upgrade to a two-liner, God forbid something happens, and you feel like you're not ready for it. So navigating your confidence along with the too soon and too late thing,

because you do have to push, but at the same time, you don't have to push as well. This is a massive gray area that I hear a lot of pilots talk about, but I don't hear a lot of answers regarding, clear-cut answers regarding this. Do you have any suggestions on how did you navigate this when you were growing up in your career, and how did you eventually try to upgrade and do things that were outside your comfort zone? Yeah, the

Philipp Zellner: thing was, I start with, I remember we make a lot of call- ups in the beginning and we was a small group and we just flew outside and we make so many call-ups as possible all the time. And yeah, for sure it was many flights like this. And then after we start going on a lake, then we make our first full stall. Actually, I make a spiral and make a front call-ups and then my friend was like, oh, I feel a mix. Full stall, I have to make also. And then the next round I was like, oh, fuck, my friend makes full stall. Okay. And so you push with your friends a little bit more. You go in

a safe place, even if you're so rescued, you land in the water. Yeah. It's always good to push like this. And This is also a point I see many times people, they fly even C glider or D glider, they should not go too fast on these gliders because there is not really a reason. Last year in India, I flew a Zoom X2C and it's also C glide, so you don't need really to upgrade too fast because actually you can do everything with a big ladder even if you want of course no if you fly a long time you fly a lot and then of course you can go for a zero So let's say if we have to make this line of

upgradation, because let's say upgrading to a newer classification or a higher classification wing is one of the main reasons why your skills do not match with the expectations that eventually, with the reality that eventually happens of how the wing behaves. So let's say... To be on a safer level, should pilots start putting some number of hours as the benchmark or some number of stalls as the benchmarks that, hey, until I do 100 hours, I don't think I should be upgrading or until I do so many stalls, I will not upgrade. As a minimum set, because obviously no manufacturer or no reseller or retail shop out there will try to say that I will only sell this to a pilot with a certain number of hours. But on a

personal note, do you think it's a good habit to try and have some kind of benchmarking which you can actually measure rather than just the feeling? Because feelings can change with the day and confidence level and all of those things. Yeah, I would actually say... Before you

Philipp Zellner: upgrade to a glider, you should feel confident in the stall with your old glider. It's maybe a little bit higher. Many people for sure don't know how to do the stall with the glider while they're flying. But in my opinion, it's like I start with stalls with... mentor and I stall it so many times that I feel comfortable and then I move to another glider. And then even if I try one new glider, the first thing what I do, I fly out and I make a stall and look how it behaves, how I feel like under the glider when I stall the glider. This is always like when I try a new glider. Except my

friend tell me, oh, this is my new glider. Don't make a stall. Okay.

Yeah, that sounds great. But I think while we are talking about stalls and pushing the limits on all of these things, do you think you as a pilot yourself have had some limiting factors while you were progressing? Did you have your kind of experience level or your goals which influenced your decisions or anything which influenced risk-taking abilities? How has your progression been? Because obviously everybody has their own battles to deal with. So what were your challenges while you were trying to move on? although you do seem like

Philipp Zellner: you fly like you're an invincible person but as a pilot to pilot how do you navigate all of these challenges if you have any yeah the thing was yeah I had some friends they was very good in acro so they teach me a lot so this was also what helps me a lot sometimes if you have no people who can help you then it's more difficult to get better it's always good if you have some friends or even if you have no friends you take some SIV or you do some other stuff Yeah. Have you had decisions? Have you had to take decisions in your flying career where you had taken like calculated risk, where

you had to prioritize safety while pushing the boundaries or anything like that? Yeah, sometimes, of course, there is some risk, especially

Philipp Zellner: when I did this Himalaya crossing. Sometimes you get in places, there is windy and maybe you expect, but then there is windy and there is no place to land. Yeah, there is some bad moments for sure sometimes. you always have to find an opinion what you can do in the worst case when i go flying i'm always looking for one opinion and there is always something possible if you're in the worst place maybe then you can soar up somewhere or yeah for sure it's also sometimes a little bit luck but luck is also good we need also luck in our life for sure i have also a lot of that

but A hundred percent. You know, and when you're talking about the Himalayan crossing, I remember about the harness rescue that you did.

Let's talk a little bit about that one when you were flying at 6,500 plus or something and you picked up a harness of another pilot and brought it back to the main landing in Saudi. Yeah. Let's bring that one into the show, man, because I think that will cover up a lot of topics. How did that flight pan out? And if you can just talk to our audiences a little bit about it and then we'll pick it up from there on. Yeah, one friend of mine

Philipp Zellner: landed there and then he fell in the river and then they picked him up with the chopper and then he was back in Manali and then I went to Manali to speak with him and luckily in Manali I got some ropes and some rescue kits and he told me he left all the gear there. And I say, oh, interesting. What do you do with this stuff there? And then he'll say, oh, yeah, if you take it, you can have it. And I'm like, okay, this sounds like a deal. So I got a hundred meter rope and lots of other things. for safety and I had my good shoes with me and then I hiked up from Manali like maybe 1000 meters with

around 30 kilos then from this point I took off and then I flew to direction Parabangal because it was behind the glacier on the river direction to Parabangal and he gave me the coordinates and he told me the chopper pilot said oh at least you put the glider very well I can see very well the red color in the water this I remember so I flew above on 4000 and I looked down I'm like okay this looks like a red point this looks good so I land on 4000 then after I hike down And up on the air, I saw already one place where it was flat, where I can put my tent. So I went into that to

prepare everything. And then I see also where I was sleeping, there was everywhere holes around. And for sure, you see even the poo from the bear. So I know there is some bears around. But yeah, like what to do? They're not used to humans so much there because I think there is not much people there. so i was like okay if something will happen and make some noise or i put some sound on my speakers because i always fly with speakers so i was like okay if there is something happen i put some noise even i went to sleep then i even look some youtube some videos i download

some videos just to remind me how to make the notes proper again because if you don't use long time sometimes you forget yeah then I checked everything again and then I went to sleep even I heard some noise I put some music full on and then after half an hour I turned it off and I started to sleep again yeah the day after I just left my tent there then I hiked down and then I found the place where it was and it was like quite steep it was actually very steep so I found one tree on the top I put the rope on the top and then I went down to the water Yeah, actually it was very funny

because it was like on the front and on the back side there was full of ice and more or less like full ice and glacier and in the middle there was a hole where the guy fall in too. Luckily he got stuck before the river goes again under the water or under the ice. I was hiking on these places, it was a little bit scary because it was everywhere cracks. But I hiked with my safety line and I was like, okay, in the worst case I get stuck on the rope. Then I hiked on the other side of the river. and then i see it's not so deep so i put all my clothes off and then i went in naked on this place to

keep my stuff dry because if you go out of the water of course it's super cold it's a glacier water you know it's super freezing so i jumped there on the rock and then i see this harness and then i put see okay it looks not bad okay i put it on the side of course was full water and stuff Then I tried, I think it was alpina, I tried to get this glider out, but because it was already three or four days in the water, because of bad weather, I tried to put it a little bit and it was like... So I said, okay, the glider I can forget because it's super stuck in the rock and... So I put the

harness out, I dried it a little bit, I put even the rest, no I let everything together, I put it in my bag and then I climbed up again on this place with my rope and when I was in the top again I keep going in the forest a little bit more. And then suddenly I hear some noise when I was hiking there. And then I look on the right side, I'm like, oh, oh, there was a bear 20 meters next to me. There was one bear and the bear also realized me. And he turned around and then there was a tree lying. And then he's standing on the tree like this, was looking at me. And then I was looking at him, I'm

like, oh, oh. Then I make some noise and I make me a little bit bigger. and then suddenly he watched me two three seconds and then he turned around and there was very steep and then he started to run up there i really hear how he was breathing it was like just like because he was full running up and this was a little bit scary moment but also yeah i always want to see a bear so it's on my pocket

no way man then after I hiked back to my tent and then I opened all the stuff and I tried the harness and I opened the reserve and tried everything At this point, I put everything in my tent and I packed everything again. And I think I slept on three, five. So it was 500 meters to hike up again with all the stuff. So then I packed my stuff and I looked on the other side of... I looked in the other side of the other ridge, and then I'm like, something is moving there. And I'm like, ah, Philipp, now you're so one bear, you're getting crazy, you know? So I stopped again in the back, and

I looked again. I'm like, for sure, it's moving. There is another bear there. I was far away. It was not close, but I was like a little bit scared because I had all my stuff. I laid some stuff on 4,000 meters, my glider, my harness. And I remember there was some almonds inside. I was like, oh, hopefully the other bear is not there and looking for my almonds. It would be very shitty if they destroy your glider and then you're stuck there. This was also all the time sinking when I was hiking up to my glider. wow i mean i don't know where to start yeah keep going keep going

yeah and then up there when i was up there there was like 35 case wind side wind because there was the glacier and i think there was the glacier downwind was pushing outside so it was quite tricky especially with two harness to take off i had some rope i put the other harness under my ass and yeah So it took me two or three takeoffs because one time I got up and the glider was shooting and then I got the collapse and I was again on the ground. And then on the third time or the second time I managed to But yeah, you cannot really proper move with all this harness. The other one

is behind you or under you. So you're a little bit, I don't know how to say, you feel very like you have another 50 kilo more or something like that because you cannot move really proper. But somehow I managed. Then it takes me in the beginning a little bit of while to get some nice height. But then at one point I got a super nice journey and I went up to 6'5", 50, I think. And then I started to fly to Parabang, to the wreck in Chamba. And then after I jump out, I get another good height. Then I jump out and jump Chalchubas and come back to Biru. You know what? Let me start with this

question. Was it worth it? Yeah, of course. It was a nice adventure, man.

Philipp Zellner: No, I like these things to do. If I have one idea in my mind, what I want to do, I will try, you know. Are you kidding me, man? You had a beer 20 meters

from you and you knew that was possible and you were going naked in glacier water and stuff like that. That's brutal, man. What kind of adventure are you chasing? What's your curiosity? Tell us about it. Let us into your mind a little bit. How do you approach these things? What makes you do them? Yeah, in the end, you just have to be safe on the landings, no? If you're good in the landings, then everything is good no

Philipp Zellner: you don't have to push so far so you can even i had food for me like for three four days if i say okay i don't manage i just make a bivouac there and then try my time but on the other side i'm interesting okay i want to see the place where he land and this and that and then i'm like i'll get like more interesting and then you get motivated i like down there oh yeah okay okay yeah put down the rope on ice go down there with the rope So this is a very nice thing that you can do. Yeah. yeah so basically if i have to sum it up it's like curiosity plus the confidence in your skills because

you've worked for it and the sense of adventure all basically come together when you design an adventure or when you design to go out there and chase power lighting if i understand yeah yeah this is right i don't have to prove anything somebody i can do what they want and But this was

Philipp Zellner: for me a good mission. It sounds nice to pick up the harness or at least to look where is the start from where we land. Let's talk a little bit about

those days, man. Because obviously you're flying for the majority of the day and you're making a lot of decision making. And I believe paragliding does take a lot of energy. It does make you tired. So sleeping at the end of the night is not a problem. But then... How did you spend your time when you were actually on the ground and when it was just you and absolute wilderness and not a human in sight? What were you doing then? What was your thought process and everything during that time? I enjoy it. It can be not more beautiful than you alone in a mountain

Philipp Zellner: somewhere. I like it very much. I also like it very much with friends. But if you're alone, it's also a special feeling. There is always something to do. Otherwise, you hike up, sit on a rock, and just watch a little bit. Yeah, I always never get bored in there. Otherwise, you make some nice music. You can dance a little bit.

Man, you should get a GoPro to record all of this, man. I think the world needs to know about what all you do. Sometimes it could be funny,

Philipp Zellner: yeah. 100%. I think the inside life of Philippe Zelenor is going to be even better than what the world knows from the outside or from Instagram

or Internet, as we know. Probably people will get mad.

Interesting, interesting. Let's say when you are, are you into teaching or are you mostly into tandem? I'm into tandem, but I'm

Philipp Zellner: thinking to do some guiding also. But yeah, I don't have to. So it's okay if some people say, okay, they want really to do it with me and then they have a certain amount of money, then I will do otherwise. I also enjoy to fly by myself. This is for me also more important because I will work there a half year and there I don't fly much solo because of course you keep you busy, you have to make advertisement, you have to speak with people and sometimes speak with them that they fly with. So even for the big days here in Austria, don't fly so much in Austria here on the big

days. Actually, I should. But yeah, you cannot do everything. Either you decide, you take your holiday in the winter. You say, okay, I take my best days off here. But then you have to look. Maybe then I should do more guiding. But I like this. It's a good life. I think just to be your

student, like that was the curiosity why I asked you that question. You have to be a special breed to be able to follow your instructions or where you take your guides as your clients, man, because you're pushing the limit as far as it stretches, I think. But of course, with the clients, I

Philipp Zellner: would not push that much because that's why this is also the big thing where I like to fly by myself because then I can push my limits. And this feel like in competitions, most of the people, they are like pushing not their limits, they're pushing the limits because other people push. This is actually not a really good thing. Let's say you don't fly for a long time. And then you go to competition and then they push because the other push. Then it's getting, there is more risk. Like for me, I only push when I feel confident. Sometimes I feel not like pushing. It's always like, how is your feeling? How is your day? You're a little bit tired. Maybe sometimes you sleep not good. Sometimes you sleep good.

You feel like full power. Then you try. But that's why for me, it's always important when I go for bivouac or something. I don't look so much about weight. People, I know many people, they come with sleeping mattress or with very thin sleeping bag. They sleep not well. Me, I don't care. I have my sleeping mattress. It's one kilo, one kg. And also my sleeping bag is heavy, but it's a really good one. And this is for me more important that I don't freeze in the night. So I sleep very well. So then the next day you're like 100% and then you can start again. This is But I think if you do

lots of bivouac and you want to cross something, I think this is very important to do this. No, I think what you're saying is that make sure

you're well prepared for the adventure. You don't sacrifice on that one, and then you can chase the adventure as hard as you want to without being scared while the adventure is going on. Exactly. I would not always say I'm well prepared. I have very good gear with me, but if I see

Philipp Zellner: other people, let's say like Francois Ratolsky when he did this crossing, He had all my waypoints. He had some other waypoints where people were sleeping. Even he told me, look, there is water. Look there is this and that. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I did it in a different way. Everyone can. This is very professional how he did. For me, I was flying. I take off at 10 or 11 o'clock. Me, I don't care to fly 100 kilometers or 150 or even 200. I was just like, I don't want to land down in the valley and hike. I just want to keep going with flying. At four o'clock, I always

look for a place where I can land and even where I can find some water or something. So mainly I was on the snow line, close to the snow line. So there is always water. Yeah. Oh, sounds exciting. And I think I would like to touch upon the point that you said that when competition pilots

or all of those ones, they try to fly not for themselves and they get influenced by the ones surrounding them. I think this is a very human thing that when you are trying to be better, like competition is, let's see who's the best. So everybody out there is trying to be the best of the rest. And when that happens, it subconsciously plays with your mind. And this happens even in the new beginners course. I completely see that. It happened with me. It happened with other students that I have seen. And it happened also in the intermediate pilot syndrome that you want to be better than the other crowd. You seem to be navigating that pretty successfully. The first thing is that you don't fly with the

crowd. You make your own lines and you make your own glory. But how do you not letting the others influence you, even though it is a very natural tendency for humans to get influenced by others? It's difficult to say because even in the beginning, I told you when my friend made the first

Philipp Zellner: full stall, I went also up to make the full stall. So I was also in this game. But yeah, it's also not bad sometimes. But it's always you have to think about how much you spend time in the air. If you don't spend much time in the air, you don't push too much. It's very difficult to say. Yeah. So I think we should let our listeners answer this question for themselves, pretty much. Yeah, you have to find by yourself the way how much you push. And I'm not here to tell people, yeah, you're not pushing, you should not push. Because everyone can do what they want. And this is

everyone's own restaurant. I see. Let's talk about the Nepal to India crossing, which I think you did in record time. Was it seven days or how

long did you take to do that one? No, completely. India and Nepal was like 13 days, 1300 kilometers.

Philipp Zellner: and the previous record was how many days was that i don't know i even don't didn't look before because this to me it's just happened because of the corona thing i say okay i will not go back to austria so i went to nepal and then there one guy or one friend he texted me he will also come to nepal i say okay if you have a house you can come that is a nice room you can spend there also your time And then they actually, they come up with the plan to fly to Kathmandu or close to Kathmandu. And I say, okay, this would be a nice mission. And even if I like it, I keep going further. So I

flew from Pokhara to direction Kathmandu. And yeah, first there was two other friends and it was flying together because they have a tent. One guy was not so fast. So they stay together and me, I keep going because I say, okay, I don't know if they come in. We said actually after 60 kilometers, we meet there. But then I was not sure. And I say, okay, I keep going. I will see what's going to happen. And then I liked it so much that I crossed from Pokhara to the east side in four days. And then I was in Dharan in the city. I was flying there one day because it was a new spot for

me. and then the day after i went back with bus to bokhara and then i think i make one or two days great then i flew close to annapurna this was on my break day yeah i want to make a hike and fly and then i went to 5200 and close to annapurna too and this was also very nice beautiful flight And the day after I make a rest and then I saw, okay, now I have again four good days. Okay, I go to the west side of Nepal. And then, yeah, I flew almost every day 100 kilometers or even more. So you're telling me that just going with the flow and things just happen for you. Is that how your flying is?

And is that how it has been all your life? Not all my life, but mainly I always say it's same with work or something, or you get kicked out

Philipp Zellner: somewhere, or I don't know, or you quit with the girlfriend. I always say one door closed and the other one open. This is my way of thinking. I love

it, man. But you must have done a lot of things right to be in that position. Because as you're saying, like Annapurna or handling the beer encounter in a calm manner or planning the whole harness rescue and smashing the records in the Himalayas with brand new lines and all of that. So... What I'm curious is like, how did your hard work look like? What all things like there must have been times when you're like, oh, my God, this is so tiring, but I know I have to do this to get better at flying. So can you talk to our audiences a little bit about like, how did you reach

this place in your flying career? Like, where did you put in the effort? Actually, I don't push that I have to do. It's always, okay, I feel good. I

Philipp Zellner: do. I fly around. Even sometimes, even not the biggest flight, which means not like these are the best flights. If just you fly, I don't know, half an hour and they're even much more beautiful than the other big flights what I have done all the time. It's very difficult to say because you make a record, this is the best flight. It's just a number. The other thing is more like just enjoy what you do and then it will come. by themselves, I feel like, was also when I make this when I make the beer record this 272 flying to Kashmir on the border it was my end of the

crossing actually I say okay I want to go to this end of the border in Machal so I started to fly there and because of other friends he left earlier I say okay maybe it would be nice to come back when I come back and then I jump above Chalchubas I see oh good 240 kilometers what was the record so actually I decided in the last maybe two three hours to make the record this was not didn't plan it sometimes I do but this time I was not planning it and then I was like the last three hours okay okay go after 360 okay turn around fly back see you

The smile on your face tells me the amount of fun you've had chasing all these adventures, man. Super nice. But I think you are the definition of keeping it fun and then doing it. Because a lot of times I've had my guests say, and I've heard a lot of senior pilots say, that as long as it's fun, you should keep on doing it. From you, it seems like you pretty much do have a lot of fun. I think if you try to chase it too much, it will not come.

Philipp Zellner: It will only come when you take it easy. was for me also when I went to Colombia I had also I should I try to break the record but that was like I was trying too much I feel like so then I realized also ah why to fly the same route every day I'm like okay fuck that shit man I'm not i'm here to enjoy so i do what i want then i make a also a very nice feedback and i also then i realize that that's why i'm here for it to do this what i like to do not to chase this record so it's just There are just numbers. If you make a short flight or you fly 100 kilometers in one direction, it gives you

more back. I feel like when you fly 100, not 100 times, but maybe you fly 10, 15 times always the same route and try to push a little bit more there, push a little bit more there. then you look always of your average speed you're not fast so you push more and then you end up somewhere down there because he was like i have to keep this speed and yeah so it's better you are just take it easy and go with the flow and then things can happen i see

Let me ask you this, Philippe. Do you have your flaws? Are there times when you're angry with yourself? Like, oh, why did I do this? Or I could have done better or something. Do you face those challenges as well when you're flying? Of course you can. But on the other hand, it can be always

Philipp Zellner: worse. Oh, I could be already land there, so I'm already still in there.

Oh, lovely. Only on the positive things. This is also on the life. If your focus is always more positive, it's better. I remember one friend of mine, he was quite down because of something happened and some bad stories. And then I told him, yeah, but good now, no? Even you cannot go more deeper now. It can be only going more up. Then he was laughing and he said, actually, you're true.

No, I love that point of view, man. It's so much easier said than done. But the moment you're able to make peace with that, that it could have been worse. And I'm so glad for that was there. I think that is a way to unlocking a lot of good things in life, 100%. Yeah, I think so too. This is

Philipp Zellner: the thing too much negative is not good. You stay always positive and you will always find some positive things in your life. I'm pretty much sure. I want to talk a little bit about your inspirations, Philippe. Have you had mentors in the sport? Have you like how has your teachings

been? What are the pilots that you have looked up to? And how has that journey been for you in your flying career? Yeah, actually, I had some

Philipp Zellner: very good mentors. They were flying on all these competitions. So they were on the top in the earlier days. And this was quite helping me a lot because I remember when we were sitting together and there was all the old computers, you know, and there was just YouTube, I think, was almost new. And then you look videos with them and then they're like, oh, you see, this guy made a collapse. You see, he crashed. And because of that and because he don't react, you see, bam. Then they explain you how to make collapse and stuff. And then the day after they fly next to you and

say, oh, no, it's your turn. Then he make next to you the collapse. Oh, you can fly straight with the collapse. And then you try. And then in the beginning, of course, you're scaring them. And you're okay, okay, what he told me yesterday, I have to pull the right side and make you a little bit weight shift, also not too much and this and that. And then you see, ah, actually it's true. And then it's also the good thing if you believe on them. I see also another friend, he was always making some mistake and then they told him, hey, you make this and this mistake. And he didn't get

the input. So he was always like doing the same. He didn't change what he told him to do. This is also when some good people or some acro people that fly very good and they tell you something, for sure you see which mistake you make. If you say, okay, this is the mistake, okay, I tried to do this a little bit different and now it's working, okay, thank you very much. Now, I think sharing experiences is very important in our community.

Definitely, especially when you share risky situations and learn from each other, that goes a very long way. And the role of mentorship in developing sound decision-making skills is also, I think, pretty important in navigating the spectrum of risk versus reward in paragliding. What kind of makes me curious is that how do you place a trust factor in someone that you are taking knowledge from? Of course, first of all, it's the willingness of sharing the knowledge of the person, right? He can be one of the best pilots, but if he's not willing, he or she is not willing, then of course, it's very difficult to place your trust factor. But once you have had that okay this person is willing

to share how how did you figure out whether the person is trustworthy or not or whether those informations that are coming from him are valuable for you to intake or not because that is another gray area which i see a lot of pilots but this is also difficult to find out some people are very good

Philipp Zellner: and some people are not so very good in explaining. Meet example, I remember my ex-girlfriend, she was always asking me how to make this and this. I'm like, how it works? I just do it. And then you have, then it was also difficult to me to remember how I do, because if you do things a lot of times, you get used to, you know, how to do but you don't think anymore like with the acro maneuvers you make misty and then how to explain misty okay you have to pull on this side but the other side you also stabilize a little bit especially in the end and so it's then you again if you start

this maneuver so that if you're just doing the learning in the beginning Then you remember more, I would say, because then you try always something new and okay, this is because of that. But then if you fly, do this maneuver since, I don't know, five, ten years, and then you don't think about too much. So for me, sometimes it's also difficult to explain some people how to make this maneuver because I do it so many times already, forget to explain. So it's Sometimes, even if it's a good pilot, it can be the same like me to explain sometimes some things is maybe not so good, but I'll try sometimes to give my best. I love your honesty, man. Love your honesty in this regard. So nice. I think what a

lot of audiences, audience members are curious about and have been wanting to ask you this is that why don't you compete, bro? What's stopping you from smashing X-Alps or X-Pyrenees or any of these Eigenflies when you've lived that for so long, if you're comfortable answering that? yeah i'm actually the thing that is many things competing is always saying why you do that it's more for what i would like

Philipp Zellner: to do they try the x helps if i can get in and stuff like that but on the other hand it's my man time where i make my money so it's again then you have to find some sponsor it's a lot of work it's not only about physical to get fit and to get better in flying and experience and going the route and looking for the places. It's also more in the background, lots of paperwork. and yeah when you look at the athletes they're taking full power and then what they get I know what you mean man I know what you mean we don't have to go there don't worry let's stay diplomatic I would like to

compete with each other it would be for sure a very good adventure I think as well could be very funny as well for sure suffering as well of course look at them just running all the time if there is bad weather I would say okay go home

No, but yeah, it's always why just that you can say, yeah, I compete the six Alps. Yeah. Super nice for the adventure for sure. But then I have to find some people who are taking care of my company because now in the moment my company is quite well. All my internet things looks very good. And if I give my company to somebody who mess it up, then I was working for the last couple of years very hard. I was working very hard the last couple of years for that. My company is very proper and a good level now. I have also very good pilots in my company. Yeah, I don't want to mess this

up. This is also the reason why I'm not competing yet. Definitely. And passion projects take a lot of effort to reach up to a certain level. And I

can only have respect for the amount of work that you must have put into this passion project of yours, the Tirol Air. So if any of our listeners are interested to fly tandems in Austria, in the town of Tirol, I think we're going to put your website in the show notes and they can reach out to you and get a little bit of a glimpse of the amazing flights and all these epic adventures that you bring in into their lives with you. You're most

Philipp Zellner: welcome. I was even thinking to do like in India, but just for pilots. If somebody say, oh, okay, I want to fly somewhere in the back mountains and guiding or like coaching, but with the tandem, because then you have the people in the front of you and you can explain them straight why you do that, because this of that and the wind of that and then the thermal comes up there. You can explain much more because you feel confident because they don't have to fly. Because if you do coaching example i would say then the people already in a place oh they have to take the terminal they

are already stressed so i think it's also a very good way to do this coaching on the tandem so if there is somebody interested you can ask me also for do that in india to fly in the back mountains with me with the tandem Wow. Are you offering possible beer encounters as well, if

requested, on extra charges? Or beer sightings somewhere during the flight? Because I think you know a lot about Black Mountains and where the wildlife is now, considering how much you've been there so many times. Yeah, if somebody wants to do that, and they are able to pay

Philipp Zellner: something, then it will be possible. And I am also happy to fly by myself, as I told you before. It's like more my holiday, but I'm really, some people are really interested in it and say, okay, why? And then they would say, or they would see that they can learn a lot of that because in the end, the guiding or coaching should be just should be that they get a little bit better and feel more confident and I feel like you can how to explain this you can be like more like a sponge you get more input and you can keep it because on the radio you talk with the other guys flying by

himself and you try to explain it's We'll go in on the other side of the ear and go out on the other side because already focus on being in the air and don't mess it up or something like this. Sometimes it's bumpy conditions, then you're fully focused on this to stay on this thermal. and on the tandem I'm behind of them and then I can tell them ah yeah now a little bit bumpy but yeah we will manage and then we do that and then we take the valley wind we go a little bit low with the valley wind because we are a little bit faster and this and that yeah I think it's a coaching I

know, I completely agree. Sharing knowledge is the best way to spread it. And I think especially at your caliber, one-on-one coaching will be really beneficial for the ones who are going in for it. So definitely for our listeners who are interested, contact Philippe in the show notes and we will have all the details there on how to reach him when he's on the ground. When he's in the air, you can only look up and try and spot him somewhere in the sky. Thank you. Yeah, only when you can see me. You cannot see me on camera. That's good. It's good to have a spot. Very agree

Philipp Zellner: that everyone should fly with a spot. But me, I did all my stuff, but I did everything about the in-reach. I don't know. I feel like it's different. You have to more take care about it. Anyway, you have to take care of it. You're not like, because I have an in-reach, I can be stupid and make stupid decisions. It's always... Yeah, but I say also I know what is the risk of doing that, and I'm okay with that because, yeah, I love to fly like this. And I always say if I don't have it, I don't need it. It's always good to have a backup. I think that is what I'm going to

endorse to the audiences, and it's always good to fly with a spot and GPS. So please make sure you choose to make that decision wisely. there is

Philipp Zellner: also there is some climbers they climb without rope there is also like a reason why i feel it's different so if you look at the solo climber without rope without anything it's also lots of risk But that is the special feeling. And then I think we are again back in the adrenaline stuff. So if it's smart or not, actually not. Actually, I can resonate to that. And let's talk a little bit about this. Because I was doing Via

Forata a few days back, somewhere here in Norway. And it was a fairly difficult climb. It required some level of skill and some level of strength and everything. But there was a time in my climb when I realized that the carabiner, the securing carabiner, which was connected to the rope, was just giving a mental piece. I wasn't really using it. I wasn't really putting my load on it. And of course, when you look down and we look around you, you're like, oh my God, this is so exposed. I'm right on the edge of the mountain on the ledge and anything could happen. But just because you have a carabiner, Your heart rate isn't shooting up. Your mind isn't going very crazy because mentally you are feeling very

secure because you have a security. So what I do understand is that, of course, it is possible to take away that security of the carabiner and the rope and do it. But what I don't understand is that when will you reach a decision that, yes, now it is okay to remove that carabiner. Now I want to go full focus only on climbing and not on that. Because in reality, it is just, let's say, a reserve. It's just a mental piece, right? Yeah,

Philipp Zellner: that's a mental piece. Yeah. So that is such a difficult question, man, because I'll tell you what, I would call it stupidity because I flew

without a reserve for a few flights when I was a 90-hour- old pilot, although there were some logistical reasons for it and everything like that. But to be honest, I did not feel scared or I did not feel that I was doing something stupid. I just felt normal. And this was in Birr. Although just for our listeners perspective, as soon as I got a reserve in two, three days, I deployed it as well for the first time in my life. I don't know if was I stupid flying without a reserve, but I was flying safe. And then the moment I got a reserve, I was like, all right, let me

just push the bar. Let me just do this. Do you have anything to talk about this topic? Anything to say on this? It is very difficult to say. I mean, Come on, man. We are being open to each other. Let's talk about difficult things. There's no better person than you to talk about difficult things. No, in the end, it's as you feel. I was also with my father one time on, how do you call it? Virata. Virata, yeah.

Philipp Zellner: And then he took the rope and I said, okay, I will make it without because I was hiking this already one or two times before and I feel it's not so difficult. I just want to know how you feel different. And then I hiked up without and everything was good and was possible and was not too difficult. But it's only mental. These things are mostly mental and I think it's also funny to play this mental game. yeah but this is again i don't know call it stupid but what is secure in the life this is the other question we go out of the street we can have anywhere any accident most of

the people they die in the bathroom would you like to say that having no security makes us more secure because we don't take as many unnecessary risks if we have to sum up this topic Yeah, I don't know. I try always never to take risks if I have some safety stuff with me. So it's, yeah. All

right. I think we can leave it at that and let the audiences decide for themselves. Although it's a very difficult question, but answers are very individualistic and people can only answer for themselves. Yeah, I think it's better. Let's be politically correct for this one in here. But Philippe, we are reaching the end of time. And before I start to wrap it up, I just want to know, have you had to deal with any setbacks in your career? Have you had to deal with challenges? And if yes, then what was your strategy in overcoming them and making sure that they never come back again or anything like that? Challenge, you mean if you make some mistakes or something like this? of course no sometimes many times you

Philipp Zellner: make mistakes no but it's also i remember one time in guatemala i followed my lines and then i just hardly opened my rescue and i was on the ground but this i was not scared after to fly because i know what i make which mistake i made no so it always depends If you know what was the problem, I think then you're not too scared. But if you don't know what was happening, then I think you have a problem because you don't know what was the problem. So the knowledge gap, basically, you're saying as long as you have the knowledge, then fixing it is easy. And if you don't

have, then it's a gray area that might be scary to navigate. yeah if you make a problem and you don't know what's gonna what was happening if you

Philipp Zellner: get the collapse and you don't know why because you don't react or something then you will be always scared about the collapse if If you have a collapse and then, okay, I bumped two or three times, now it's open again. Got it, got it. While we're talking about this one, do you have a

certain way of risk assessment while you plan out your adventures? What's your thought process? Because I know you're very spontaneous and you like going out, as you've explained in the past almost an hour in the show. But still, how do you start thinking about an adventure? How do you visualize, is I think what I was asking. Visualize. Visualize. I don't think too much. It's sometimes better, no?

Philipp Zellner: Easier way. No, I just go with the flow. Mainly I go with my feeling, what I have in my stomach. Even sometimes I try to push and I say, oh, it's a good day. I should do something. Then if I feel like, I know, I just turn around and sometimes like in beer example I try to fly and I sit there then I try and then I feel like I feel not good so I fly back I land on golf course I play a little bit around and say okay take it easy don't worry everything is good you know so it's like even if I miss a good day I say wow I just enjoy it I remember last year or this time, it was a good day, but then I was like, ah,

somehow it feels a little bit wrong. So I flew back, I landed in the hot springs, I hiked down, I was sitting one hour in the hot water, enjoying my time there. I hack up again, I fly back out and I'm super happy to do that. Even people come back, wow, I did this nice big flight. I'm like, wow, I did this nice big mission or a big mission, small mission in the hot springs.

Oh, I love it, man. I love your outlook at the whole adventure, the way you chase it. And it seems like you're at peace with the reward. And of course, the risk versus reward. And that's, I think, the best way to navigate it. It's so foolproof. Me, I never have time because if I go

Philipp Zellner: somewhere, I take my time. I don't go there for two weeks. People going there for two weeks, of course, they have to push and they want to move more. For me, I say, okay, if it's not happening, I don't care, you know. Got it, got it, Philippe. I think, Philippe, before we wrap it up,

usually there's a tradition on Power Learning Atlas where I ask my guests to share one flight that has stood out from their lives that they can remember. I'll be very thankful if you can share with our audiences one such airtime that you've had which kind of stuck with you and which you're very thankful and which you looked, be it a pleasant or an unpleasant one, whatever, your choice. Yeah, the hike and fly was nice.

Philipp Zellner: It was not really nice for my friend, but it was also a nice adventure because I went just for a hike and fly and then I went to golf course. I land there and then somebody told me my friend crashed on Big Face. And then they say, ah, you come down and then you open because he was sleeping with me in the same room. And then they say, ah, we need the passport and blah, blah, blah. I say, no, I will not go there. I go to Big Face. Where is my friend lying? so i took off again and then only with shorts so i land on 3000 meter with shorts and then luckily debu was also landing there and

alex one other austrian guy was already before there and then we had to spend the whole night i think 24 28 hours till the chopper come we have to spend there on the mountains film and It was crazy. It was, for him, super painful sometimes. But in the end, it was a story I will never forget. I have a good friend, one of the best friends, and he's lying there and he's suffering. But yeah, in the end, he managed to have as good a time as possible. And even when he was laughing, sometimes he was like, oh, it's so painful. I'm like, oh, sorry. I mean... Yeah, but in the end, now

everything is good, so now we can laugh about these things, no? But yeah, at one point that was already very sad, but luckily everything went on a good timeline. Yeah. Love it, man. And I think camaraderie and airmanship is such an important part of our sport. And the way your

actions were that day probably helped your friend mentally a lot, which was way more important than anything else. Good to hear that, Philippe. I wish they make more pilots like you in the air and also on the ground. Yeah. I will come for sure some many pallets like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should open up a Philippe Zellner Training Academy or something like that. Yeah.

Spread the knowledge, my man. The podcast can only reach so many people. Your teaching has to influence more. But yeah, of course, I think you're doing whatever you can in your own way. All right, Philippe. I think on that note, it is a perfect time to call it quits for now. Although your adventures and your stories are endless, and I think we can definitely hope to bring you back whenever next possible for you with a new topic so we can share and spread the world of paragliding and everything around it to our audiences and your followers and fans so for now it's been an absolute pleasure and honor philippe and i hope you touch the sky with glory in time to come as you have been so far yeah thank you very much for

your time to have you in your show and probably see you soon in india or somewhere sounds like a plan man as long as it's airtime i'm in