PWCA: Goran Dimiskovski

Aninder: You know, there are multiple ways to start an episode. And of course, when I think of bringing out a new episode, the whole idea is to try and make it exciting, try and make it very enriching for the audiences, get them captivated from the word go. I mean, all of these marketing strategies and everything that's out there on Internet, how to how to make your podcast successful, how to make an episode really do well, how to choose up your guests. And like there are multiple algorithms to do things right. But there's one algorithm to do things right, which has kind of been there since ages. And that is by speaking out the truth. Unfiltered

and unhindered information sharing has always won the day. And this episode is a perfect example of how having a heartful conversation, a conversation without limits, can add so much value to the topic that you're discussing. And what gives me pure joy about this one is that it comes straight from within the person who is basically running the show for when it comes to racing paragliders. Today we're going to have a chat with Goran Demyanskovsky the president of paragliding world cup association so today Goran and I basically sit together and talk about what goes behind the scenes and what allows us as humans to fly together in numbers and not just in numbers like in multiples of hundreds

sometimes all together pushing the limits pushing the speed bars chasing the glory and trying to get on the podium but honestly if you ask me i'm not that experienced in podcasting just yet but from whatever i've had i'm yet to come across a guest so open and so bold and so truthful about whatever he's bringing on the table So without further ado, I'm not going to spill any beans here. This one is a gem that you shouldn't be missing if you are like me and you like racing paragliders up high in the sky when we all start our quest to touch the sky with glory. I have to bring

out a disclaimer here. Not the best audio quality because of some technical glitches, but hands down one of the best contents out there that I've made so far. Keeping in tune with our plans of covering PWCAs, this is episode number three. The first one was the first time ever pre-World Cup organized in a new location in India other than Bir. The second one, we went all the way to the continent of Africa, where one of the most amazing tour guides in our sport had organized a pre-World Cup in Kenya. Wings Among Wildlife was the theme of that one. And Nikolai told us how to navigate the skies of Kenya while enjoying the usual safari and the holiday. And this time we keep it simple. We get to find out

all that you need to know on what goes behind running the show and how and why we should stay excited about what's coming. Talking about staying excited I must mention the next episode in the series of paragliding world cup is going to come from a pilot who has pushed the limits for as long as she knows it and she comes across to share her stories about how she navigated life and yet managed to build a successful career racing paragliders and with that being said it's time to tune in and share some knowledge in the world of paragliding world cups

Goran Demiskolski, thank you so much for doing this. Welcome to Paralyzing Atlas. So happy to have you here. Pleasure is all mine, as

Goran Dimiskovski: usual. All right. Goran, so just for our audiences, what do you do and why do you do it? Well, running a World Cup is quite an interesting thing to do in life because it's kind of a small escape from the reality. But on the other hand, diving into Parallel reality, I can say, because with the development of the sport, running a sport association and being in the focal point of all happenings is paragliding basically is getting a very serious activity, covering many aspects of day-to-day life and covering many responsibilities because what we are doing now is reflecting on thousands of people. In the early days, it was not that complex, but I can say that these days, What we are doing is moving

literally tons of people around the globe, all the financial responsibilities, all the safety responsibilities, all the sport responsibilities. Everything is so complex that, yeah, it's getting a serious activity and a job. I can imagine. I mean, you're making

Aninder: hundreds of humans fly together and not just fly, like race together. It sounds very exciting. And I can only imagine the amount of responsibility you have in your hands. But Goran, if I have to give our listeners some idea, if you can tell a little bit about yourself, because we see that you are one of the longest serving presidents of PWCA. So how did this aspect come into your life? And basically, how did you grow into and yourself along the association? into something as successful as this? Well, that was not so exciting story. It's fairly

Goran Dimiskovski: regular life path, let's say. I started to fly quite early in the 90s, early 90s. My first flight was in 91, but really starting to get some knowledge and some progress in 92. And quite interesting, in this sport, competition was alive from day one. Even those days with all these first attempts in the late 80s and a little bit in the beginning of 90s, it was not something that cooked for too long before competitions got into the focal point. They became the place when you can really materialize your dream of flying. Competitions were the place when you can learn, when you can see the latest advancement, when you have these stars, five stars, all over the place. So early in my days, my focus on

flying, I was competitive by myself by those days anyway, because I grew up in aviation. I was very lucky to start quite in my early childhood days with the Mission Aero Club in Macedonia, in my home country. It was a very vivid organization with many activities. That was maybe the golden era of Aero Clubs worldwide, with all the financements from the state, with all the support. It was an fairly attractive for everyone. So I went to aeromodeling, then a little bit of parachuting, sailplanes, motor flying, all sorts of flying. And then finally paragliding became something that is so independent and very attractive to me. And I said, I was competing already in some of previous sports. So it was a natural way

for me to be interested in comps. And even those days, paragliding World Cup at that age, was most advanced. The people being involved, they were the ones, so it was not some kind of bunch of renegades improvising something that was more attributed to the FAI at those days because they were applying the concept of what they learned from the other comps. It was over-regulated. It was not focused on the pilot himself. It was a much wider focus on national clubs, on glory, on ceremonies, on flags. trying to sell this popularity to the world. Parallel World Cup did something totally different. It was focused on the pilot, which was me in my own eyes. It was the place to be when you can really materialize your

dreams. And since 1994, very early, I became a member of World Cup, but it was just not really virtual, but by today's standards, it could be virtual because I've never attended the World Cup. I never being there, but I was a member, you know, you pay a fee and you have all these materials coming to you and step by step, step by step, step by step. In 99, I joined the first World Cup in Slovenia. One of the best pilots of those days, Bojan Marčić, organized that one. We were accepted and refused in the last moment because it was overbooked. So it was a business appointment

and That's how it started. So my attraction to World Cup was basically because it was a true competition structure that I was looking into.

Aninder: Wow. You know, this reminds me very simply of the saying, where there's a will, there's a way. From what I see, three decades of experience, you have definitely chosen the right path and come so far. And of course, are helping us show, I mean, showing the light for all of us to, you know, go out and chase the glory ourselves. Now, Goran, just out of curiosity, you say that, you know, PWCA was more pilot focused and it was more like, you know, performance focused rather than adding on to the glamour and all of that. What does a typical day at PWCA look like? I mean, I'm not

Aninder: saying, of course, it changes as the seasons and times, but usually what is the direction of this association? How do you guys plan out your workings and what keeps you guys busy? You know, World Cup is a kind of a pilot association. So it's by its statute or by its modality of

Goran Dimiskovski: existence, it's fairly loose organization. So you have members that are collected around common idea and it's a French based association. The French law is very liberal. It's dating quite early, since 1903. So it's more than a century old. So this frame is giving us an opportunity to act in a quite flexible manner, and that is reflecting in the day-by-day work and how we are doing it. So what is typical for us is that in the widest frame, we are collecting the input from the competing pilots. Through the system of selection, we have a direct exposure to the best pilots in the world. So over the season, over the years, doesn't matter, you are collecting all these official, unofficial, all sorts of input, and you

are structuring them within the internal steering body that we have, which is the Paralympic World Committee. This is a structure that can be up to 13 people. In this moment, we are 10. This is international-based, of course. There are people from all over the world, from Argentina to the United States to Switzerland, doesn't matter. Diversity, basically. Yes, huge diversity. Diversity also in the terms of background. All of us are pilots and all of us went through serious challenges competition-wise. But some of us are organizers, some of us are more, let's say, administrators. Some of us are just pure competition pilots. Plenty of profiles. So one typical day is based on

communication in between me because I'm also doing the event management for being a president of the World Cup. So I have the global vision of the near term future as well as the long term future. My near term future is something that is going about three years ahead. And my long term future is something that is going about five to six years up front. So in my daily work, I'm communicating. The greatest amount of communication is going with our secretary, Laura Sepet. Ms. Laura Sepet, yes. She's our main administrator. She's doing all the work related to selections, to related to payments, to organizing, to communication with the pilots. Well, on my side, I'm doing something

different. I'm more into communication. envisioning the season, direct negotiations with organizers, selecting them, providing them with the basic info, providing them with all the requirements that we need or what they should ask from us, you know, this kind of thing. So this is like a global picture on the more practical note. It's about three to four working hours per day for me, a little bit more, if not much more for me. Laura, for our secretary, because she needs to process what I just throw to her. And then all this system is in a very transparent way shared with this World Cup Committee, as I said, for some kind of final approval or for some kind of synchronizing if needed. And it goes like that day by

day. So it's quite a never-ending story. I can imagine. And it makes me want to thank you again for taking time from such a hectic schedule and

Aninder: sharing the story with our listeners. That does mean a lot to us. I just want to mention it again. Moving on, I've heard this from a lot of pilots. Competing is kind of a human trait. We like competing. Even before PWCA came into existence, there were some modalities in place which allowed people to race and compete in the air. I'm just curious, what basically was the need to create the existence of considering that there were already options? Why did we, a lot of pilots who really wanted to push, felt like creating PWCA and making it happen? You know, this is an

Goran Dimiskovski: interesting story, but nothing sensational, basically. It's kind of,

let's say, a needed evolution that came true revolution. I mean, this is the simplest definition here. So that was something that was truly needed, but it was not happening, you know. And I already mentioned that in the beginning. And the problem is that in the beginning of the sport, World Cup was kind of missing or it was somehow in the air because, you know, this impulse to create it was generated in the Central European countries, in the... developed countries from Switzerland, Italy, Germany, these kinds of places, they have a strong sports structure anyway. So it was like a natural development for somebody practicing the certain sport to have this will or to have this aim to practice the

sport in a well-organized structure. So this is nothing to do with parallel in particular. This is just a way of thinking and way how whoever is dedicated enough to certain activity would like to perceive himself. So this need to be seen as a true sport is doing something in a real structure, which is well-organized, which is on the topic, which is not this focused, let's say, with some kind of trivial, non-necessary things, was very alive among people in those days. So the generation of stars that we know these days, like, I don't know, Andy Heidegger or all these people from early days, Bruce Goldsmith, plenty of them, including Mr. Gene, plenty, plenty of people, French guys,

Olivier Neff, all these guys, you know, they were around here with some others, of course, that maybe they're not coming to my mind. So these people were just somehow unsatisfied with the way how sport is presented, practiced, and organized. So it was like a small push within this pilot group with this let's say well educated or well motivated pilots of those days to create a structure that will be truly dealing on a, on a simple professional enough focused way with the execution of having competitions. So that's how we started. So we started in these few countries. It was not really, let's say super successful in the beginning. The, the, the, the, environment and the motivation was on a

high level since day one. But of course, the tools, the knowledge, the way how, for example, the way how they choose places, the way how they choose organizers would be, let's say, questioned these days. Like, for example, like, I don't know how to say it, it's a kind of dark spot in history, is that even on the first year of doing this professional circuit, they had a fatality. They went to Owens Valley, which was the final of the season. It was the most important event. But choosing such a place for a final on those days with those wings, with those non-pilots and with that noise was over-optimistic. I don't know exactly, but I believe it was a reflection for cane gliding because it was a famous

destination. It was something that everybody is dreaming of. And of course, it was too challenging for the people participating. And that event somehow drove shade in the early beginnings of the Paralympic World Cup, but they recovered quite fast. And then within a few years, especially after the circuit was established in a way, and especially when the tandem of Xavier Murillo and Christian Quest, the French guys, they came into the management, including Laura Seppi that I already mentioned. So this structure, it was running well but these three people truly truly moved the world cup to the most advanced organizing party in the world just want to take the names of those three legends who

actually made it happen can you please repeat that for our listeners yes i believe that in order of importance i mean this is i mean it's not that i'm taking side but it's a It's difficult to separate among these three people. So in my eyes, for sure, I have my preferences personal, but for the sake of history, there are three of them are equally important because Xavier Murillo, he started quite early with paragliding. He was luckily a photographer, so he documented everything. So I have in my eyes here, I have literally more than 10,000 slides from his archives.

all of that material is hanging around, you know, all sorts of photos from World Cups, from early days of paragliding, from mountaineering, all sorts of everything. So, and that guy was truly living this world, bringing some experiences from other sports. As I said, he was quite involved into alpinism and doing some kind of sport events even before paragliding. He was very focused. He pushed the Because, you know, this empire, I think in those days, it was quite a strong localized influence. You know, it doesn't matter if it was international, there was always these central European countries pushing towards themselves. So Xavier Marouk is French, by the way. So he was the first

one to realize the importance of truly international. So he was the one who truly pushed World Cup out of European boundaries. Honestly, not with some, you know, pretending doing it. And the way, the structure of the rules, the structure of the system that we have now, the super final concept, all those things are inventions of that particular person. The second one is Christian Quest. He's also a Frenchman. He was a president of the World Cup in those years, but that was like one part of his job. He brought to the World Cup GPS verification and he was the one who was constantly, constantly pushing for technical innovations. So that's why, I mean, that's why World Cup was at the forefront in those

days with scoring, with verification, the instruments. There was this famous MLR instrument that was developed in France, where a few tempests were directly participating in producing a first GPS unit that is dedicated to paragliding. That is now like every single manufacturer have it, you know, so. All these things came together and not to be forgotten, I have mentioned a few times Laura Seket, she is one of the most important persons in the World Cup. This is the kind of person that is such a driving force, such a responsible person, such a willing to keep this community going on that since a very long time, she is absorbing all the positive and negative feedback Do working with it,

preparing the correct information for us and for the pilots and like secretary, but she's much more than that. She was, she's present since long, long time and quite significant. Oh, well, I mean, I feel blessed to have someone like Laura in our sport, you know, with that kind of

Aninder: driving force and actually making things better for every other pilot and out there like listeners. So, great. Thank you for that recap. You know, I think it was very essential to get an idea of what basically went behind the making of such a successful organization. But this brings me to a point, Gaurav. I'm very curious, you know, like past five, 10 years, we have seen this sport kind of leap and bound in various directions. You know, there's like, I can fly is going massive. Manufacturers are putting in a lot of their resources, their research and development is going there. We had mad synagogue, the Danish guy come up with his own league saying that I'm going to let out the open class fighters compete

themselves. And now we have SRS, which is coming in with, you know, two liners. So, There are people who are very motivated to kind of push things in their own direction and find their own ways to fulfill their curiosity. But when it comes to pure aviation or pure fun, do you think paragliding has or is evolving in the right direction? Or is it basically kind of heading as per where the money is, basically? Because High Can Fly is a lot about money and the glamour and all of those ideas. So what's your take on that? I mean, this is a very generalist question and

Goran Dimiskovski: could be applied to any sport. The key point to understand these days, and I'm saying this with full responsibility, is to finally understand that paragliding is nothing exclusive. It's just another sport and it's just rolling on the basics like whatever is rolling these days. There is nothing specific or nothing extraordinary in the way how one sport is executed in the 21st century. The concept is same because if the sport is considered a self-development, then for sure you can find it in any kind of sport. If it's considered as a business opportunity, of course it is because majority of sports needs equipment. Equipment is always commercial and this is pushing the sport into commercial

sphere. If it's considered, I know it doesn't matter which aspect you take, whatever you have in parallel, you have it whatever sport on the planet. The problem that we are still, it's underestimated in paragliding is the profile of people and the psychological profile, how we are approaching the sport. Usually the people are approaching the sports from certain affiliation towards some activity, but there are many other factors like the future, the potential, is it sufficiently professional so I could commit my entire life to it and many, many other things. In paragliding, all those doors are open, maybe not at the level like in the other sports, but the key point is that

we are still, we are getting majority of participants and this approach is alive through long, long, long period of their sportive life through simple affiliation to something. So it's even today, the emotional part of joining paragliding is much stronger than whatever parameter is important for joining the sport. You know, when you're joining the tennis this day, when you have a kid and when you're joining the tennis, the perspective is traced. It's clear. There is not too much of variation left or right. So you know what is amateur development, what is semi-professional, what is professional, what is teaching to be into administration or to go into professional schools for trainers or

for some staff. In part, I think those things are still not mature enough. Despite the fact that we should be mature enough, because there are smaller sports, much smaller sports, that are much more structured. So to precisely answer your question, all these deviations, all these directions, all these directions that we have in our sport are totally understandable. People are looking for some kind of personnel to project themselves into something that they like. So Hike and Fly have a very good platform. It's a truly good platform. Because this is the, in my personal opinion, and I believe this is something that is overlooked in the presentation of the hike and fly and

in understanding of hike and fly, hike and fly, out of all the barrier gliding, they managed to connect the true sportsman, profile of a true sportsman with flying. Because you cannot practice hike and fly on the high level, especially these days, if you are not truly defined as a sportsman, which means quick, Strong, sufficiently strong, disciplined, no alcohol, no drugs, no all this crap that is poisoning the sport these days. So this connection is attractive. But the problem, in my perspective, is despite the growth, I can see the limitations. And limitations are always the same in paragliding. And I can find the sufferer of that the most, which is dispersed type of

competitions. Hiking and flying will always attract people because, as I said, it's a self-challenge. And self-challenge in sport is the ultimate driving force, apart from some financial side effects in highly paid sports. So this self-challenging will always be around, and people will join it to prove worthy to themselves. This is also the core of racing. People are racing not only to win over others. This is just a psychological element, how you prove yourself sufficiently worthy in what you are doing. So this is something that is very important to understand. And then this kind of, this kind of, you know, we saw that with Acro a long time ago. Ah, it's over. This is over. Death is over. This

is, cross-country is over. Acro is now the thing. And then Acro shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink to exclusivity that is, you know, it's, and how to say, it's so minimal that it's almost, I don't know, it it's kind of a paradigm disaster that macro shrink to what is it today, you know, taking into consideration the effort and potential, you know. So, you know, this hype is going all the time around. You have the same with accuracy. That was the ticket to Olympic sport. That is this. This is the thing. It is where you have spectators and then you go to accuracy competition. There are no spectators because it's endlessly slow. You know, it's the competition format. It's endlessly slow.

Tonight we have these hundreds of people participating, but that hype That this is the thing, just shrink down. So it is happening all the time because we are addressing due to, as I said, in maturity, we are addressing the hype of paragliding in taking something from something else. If now we have development of, I don't know, as you just mentioned, competitions with two-liner serial class sliders. So this is, you can see this on the Facebook, you can see this on the forums. There are always some people saying, I think this is it. This is it. What? This is. to compete against somebody else to prove yourself better than himself. Simple as that. It's not like you're going to fishing and you catch a

bigger fish than the guy next to you. So it's wrong to think that this or that or whatever in paragliding will take over compared to some other branch of the sport. If we are doing a good job, there will be people motivated to do this or do that. It's so simple. So in reality, What I think is that all these directions of development are healthy because through experimenting, you will find finally what is proven to be worthy or what is not, because otherwise it's only hypothetical. And I cannot see danger into having, I don't know, something disappearing, but the only thing that I can see as danger is the spread of fonts in too many directions, because People are still, majority of competition

should be financed by third parties, not by the participant himself. And if you have too many of directions that you need to invest, this could be a problem. But that's evolution. So it will select, I think, the best sports and best people by itself. Wow. I love your perspective and how

Aninder: domestically you explained all of it. I mean, it does resonate with me as well, you know, that... When humans try to push the limit, everyone will explore their curiosity in their own intimate manner. It eventually is helping us grow and hopefully, fingers crossed, it brings out something good. Yeah, if I have to ask you, and this comes from curiosity from me, that when I started flying, competing has been like, yeah, I love competing. I want to compete. So if there's a newbie pilot and you have cross-country paragliding rocking your world, Can you please explain us what are the options to go out and chase racing? What's FAI? What's SRS? What's PWCA? What's Continental Championships? If you can

Aninder: just briefly tell us what is the roadmap a zero-hour pilot can take towards going ahead and achieving glory on the podium? Well, this is a

Goran Dimiskovski: good one, and I would like to make it comprehensive, but most likely it's impossible. But I will try for sure. So progress in paragliding these days is, I mean, it's the roadmap is fairly straightforward and easy, but it's unfortunately there are many obstacles because this logical progress of a pilot is manipulated by many structures and many organizations. So it's not that natural anymore. So there are barriers that are artificial and unfortunately someone who is truly committed usually especially if he's not from countries like I mentioned before, with a well-developed structure, like especially France or Switzerland, I would say, because these ones are still taking proper care of developing a proper sportsman in the paragliding sense of the word. If you are not into this region of the world, then you are usually

exposed to some kind of domination of schools, and schools don't want, I mean, Independence, yeah. I know what you mean. I feel it. I don't want to be, I mean, it's honestly, it's the truth. I, as a student, have faced the problem. And we are all about being honest and knowledge-sharing, so it

Aninder: doesn't harm. Yeah, please go ahead. Schools would like to have a constant flow of students being around, being the basis of their school

Goran Dimiskovski: or shop or whatever they are, lending is one, doesn't matter. So this is kind of progressing, moving from that controlled area is basically losing customers. And it's quite serious in certain countries, especially, for example, in Germany. And this behavior model is basically preventing people of getting a right perspective on things. It's not so bad. I mean, I would like to say this is quite good because not everyone is fit or tailored for competition lifestyle. Somebody is perfectly happy with... club level lifestyle but many many pilots we are losing in the competition high end because of this handicap happening around then if you are lucky enough to go through that system

and if you have enough enough stamina to to push yourself beyond the boundaries that are around you so then the typical way how to progress is to start with some cross-country flying i mean Doesn't matter, is it individual or is it within some control structure, but cross country flying that is, let's say, ambitious. When you are pushing your boundaries, because it is like learning the alphabet and then learning the alphabet will give you enough tools to enter competition, first of all. So it's, this is the key point, entering competitions, because you can spend all of your life flying without not entering a single comp. and why it's important to enter comps. This is a bit of a strange phenomenon

in paragliding. The competitions in paragliding, especially average to good ones, they are the best environment for flying because their entire structure around the single pilot. When you are, for example, living, let's say, in some place that is not very developed, you have a million question marks and you have a million of things that you need to figure out yourself, starting from the logistics, starting from metal, starting from what is allowed, what is not allowed, air spaces, millions of things that could be overwhelming because all these things are just distracting you from doing what you want. Then you go to a competition that is proportional to your skill and to your level that

you will not be exposed to some crazy advanced stuff. If you're a novice pilot, you need to position yourself where you belong. And then what you will see there, it will be an order structure when there is someone thinking about every aspect of your day. When to start, when to be there, when to have a briefing, when to open the window, what is the matter for today, to pick you up, to give you food, to give you all the information, to take care about injuries, to take care about bad stuff, to take care about good stuff, to give you advice. And suddenly, if you are in that

environment, you will improve on your progress by multiple times because simply you are practicing the sport when everything is organized you know this is the benefit this is the benefit of low profile comps you know this is the benefit about from the serial class comps nothing else you know because competition as i said before is an activity that will personally change challenge the pilot himself No one who is truly competitor will stay at the level of ENC gliders. No one. It's not about the marketing. It's not about who wants what. Because competing with yourself is a push towards perfection. And perfection, it's difficult to be satisfied simply as a competitor when you know that

there is something more demanding, more attractive, more performant, more, more, more, many, many more. And that's why There is zero risk about this, what I said before, about losing this or that. Because if you would like to achieve periodic excellence, there is only one way. And that way is to become an independent pilot, to become someone who knows how things are done, who is self-confident, who is able to fly hundreds of kilometers, to fly many hours. And the shortcut to reach that is basically competing on a high level. This is... So, you know, this is really important to be properly understood. Competing in the World Cup, competing in category one, this is not the ultimate thing. This is

like a school for you to become so good pilot that you can do things on yourself in such a perfection and this learning curve will be much shorter than if you're trying to do that by yourself. So the next day, when you have this fantastic day and then you have this weekend free of work without the family, When you go to a hill and when you have this epic one day in a life opportunity, then you go, I don't know, Quixada in Brazil and you have this 600 kilometers record flight. Every single pilot who is, I mean, maybe to be too optimistic to say or too glamorous to

say, but every single pilot who is important, he went through some kind of competition shaping, you know. Because this is the way how you really progress. A hundred percent. I think it's so easy to resonate with that because when you compete with yourself, that is when you become a better

Aninder: version of yourself. And of course, as you said, competition, entering competitions is basically trying to push the limits first from within and then with people around you. But, you know, I think we've missed out on the structure of comps because, like, we know that there's FAI and then there's PWCA and then there's SRS and then there are other things. So if you can briefly just let us know what are the options for, like, what are all of these things and how do you understand what they are? Okay, let's start in the inverse way. The weakest thing in our sport is

Goran Dimiskovski: administration. You know, this is a fact. And that's what you're saying. You know, this question is, I'm having this question quite often in different forms. It is really important to know that this question would be unnecessary if the administration was like it should be for such a developed sport. By administration, first I would like to address the FAI, which is the International Federation of Pairsports, based in Lausanne in Switzerland, a very serious organization, which is The most important thing that is not well known is that FAI is an Olympic-recognized federation. Only a handful of federations in the world are Olympic federations or Olympic-recognized. So basically the sport is governed by the FAI. They have an authority on that. It's given to them. They didn't take it. It is given to them by the Olympic

Committee, basically. So in the ultimate level, FAI is the organization that is governing world championships. And this is the only organization in the world that could grant the title of world champion. So when you win whatever else, you can be whatever, but you cannot be a world champion. You can be... World Cup champion, you can be disordered, but you cannot simply, it's like a trademark and it's exclusivity. And this is the most important thing. And this is the most glorious thing in the entire sport. And it's not well known, which is the failure of administration, because this is the ticket for many top sportsmen access to the funds, to the government's fund, to the Olympic

committees in their national countries. So to answer precisely your question on the top of the pyramid should be, it's not clear, but it should be the world championship in whatever discipline paragliding, because this is the place when you are getting a champion, when you are getting the best in the world. So these events, these events are called category one events. And the sub organization in FAI that is governing this is TIBL, which is a commission within the FAI, which is working specifically for paragliding because FAI has many commissions working for aeromodeling, for ballooning, for whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. CIVL is governing the paragliding sport and hang gliding as

well. So in CIVL, we are organizing category one. So I'm vice president there, so I'm quite familiar with the topic as well. So category one, worlds, Europeans, Pan-Americans or Parisians, doesn't matter, are the places that those are the goals that should be on the top of the pyramid. This system dissolves lower into category two events. Category two events are all the others that are CIVL recognized, in professional words, sanctioned events. When you apply with your application, you are basically giving a guarantee that you will apply certain standards. So category two is nothing more than basically a binding relation in between two parties that the rules established by

CIVL will be followed by the organizer. There is a fee for that, which is modest, but doesn't matter. It's organized. And then with getting a sanctioning, simply you are recognized as organizer of the comp under certain standards and rules. This is category two events. In this category two events, all the events that you know that are good enough are category two, including World Cups, including SRS, including whatever. All of these events, they fit into the profile of category two events sanctioned by CIVL. So now, basically the story ends here. So you have category one and category two events. This is the structure and this is the concept. So in category two events, organizers are

basically very free to use the rules in a way they see appropriate. Basically, there is a precise line in the rules saying that category one, which is rules in Continental Championship, rules should be followed by category two as far as appropriate, which is giving you quite a loose format so you can do whatever you want. So now there are many sub-organizations that are doing what they are doing. World Cup is the most important and for sure most developed and biggest one and with the longest experience into this. So we established a structure totally independent and we are truly working on our independence from CIVL and from FAI because this is the healthiest way how this sport could not be

misled into the mistakes that first of all led to formation of the World Cup 30 years ago. So independence is very important for the World Cup. So we have our own rules that are quite often a model for Category 1 rules because Category 1 is one per year and World Cup is 10 times per year. So there is much more place to practice. We have much more knowledgeable base to get some technical stuff or formulas, whatever. And we have much more experienced field to experiment with. So then we have a pre-World Cup concept, which is 15, 20 events per year that you can also do things.

So basically, World Cup is the driving force behind whatever is happening in parabolic growth. And this is the importance of it, you know? Because whatever you take from the way how it's scored, from the way how it's monitored, we were the pioneers in the life tracking. For sure, the first life tracking was applied in the European Championship in Austria. I mean, at that level. But it stopped there. And then the entire development, thanks to huge commitment from Flymaster, our partner in the World Cup, we developed it to the levels that are today, you know, it's state-of-the-art technology. So this is the importance of the World Cup. SRS, on the other hand, is a new system of POMs, a new

organization. The main difference that is important to understand is the World Cup is an association, which means it's an open structure when people can directly contribute to decision-making, while SRS is a centralized, let's say, privately run and owned organization. And it's differently structured and it's differently based. But the way how it's executed, it's copy paste from the World Cup, which is cycles of four or five events during the year and then final or doesn't matter how they're calling it. So basically this is just another form of sport class competition. We have sport competition, sport class competitions everywhere around the world, many of them. So, and then

there is many spinoffs. So there is a bodybuilding Grand Prix, the Polish guys are organizing this, which is very similar to to SRS, it's another fairly successful modality for this intermediate level of events, serial events. And yeah, more or less, this is the structure. So you have this basic structure, category one, category two events. And then you have these different types of organizations and organizers that are fit into that structure by creating their own identity. Got it. So just to sum it up, basically, FAN is sitting on top of the pyramid. and

Aninder: define who gets to crown the world champion glory. And FAI is not for profit as well. They are being run solely for the sake of sport. And then that is category one. Once you go one tier down in category two, you have these allied organizations which can be for profit as well as non-profit. And then these organizations allow people to come in and have their first competitions or experience what competition structure is like. And that can be SRS, that can be PWCA, that can be, you know, the other one, the Grand Prix, as you said, or even maybe whatever, the Danish guy started. So all of these things come in category two, under. All right. Makes sense. Makes sense. So basically, when we talk

Aninder: about category two, is there, the civil is still defining the rules, basically? Is there a watchdog sitting up top and saying, this is how it is supposed, it will be run, or is like, this is how it is supposed to be run, but you do your own thing, kind of, like, what? Yes, you know, this

Goran Dimiskovski: is, yeah, it's coming in circles, you know, as I said, administration is the weakest point, so CIDL is a very, how should I say, a very positive structure. It's a structure of the concept and how it is executed, especially in the last 10 years, maybe something like this. It's like it should be. So this governing of the category two and one events in general is done in a fairly successful way. Luckily, CIBL followed the concept of World Cup and then about six, seven years ago, we, or they, it doesn't matter, I'm part of it, so maybe I should say we, but to avoid confusion with the World Cup, I will say they, So agreed to have a permanent employee. So this is Ms. Elena Filonova, CIVL competition

coordinator. So now they have someone employed and paid to run the same stuff that Laura is doing for us, which is governing and controlling and following all the events, sanctioning, payments, following the rules. We have a platform which is called EMS, which is, you can see that on cflcomps.org. True. When this platform is, I mean, Elena is a moderator there, so it is her baby with our investment. And, you know, so all these things are making CWL a perfect controlling body. But the amount of job and amount of malfunctions is enormous. Because for sure, many, many events are small, local, town, hill events. 20 people that would like to have some kind of event somewhere. They need some kind of

officialized form for sponsorship or whatever. So they are applying for sanctioning. They are not so motivated. They are not so serious. They are not so... ambitious, and then those events for sure, they have quite a flexible rules, but in general, luckily due to the tools that we have in Seattle, like the Paris and the world liking system, there are many filters. So these kinds of events are not influential for the. Uh, entire picture of the, of the competition scene, you know, so they're kind of by the system, they're kind of, uh, discard it in a way, maybe not really discard, but let's say they're dissolved into the mass of higher quality events. So they're becoming insignificant, you know? So if I

say that CA will have a few, I mean, that have a massive control, it would be overambitious. It has a certain amount of control. It has a certain amount of projection, the power and to following events. As we go higher in the pyramid, if we go towards more important events, like big national opens or like pre-events for the world, for Europeans, for category ones. So then this control and this influence of CIVL is growing and it's becoming a crucial element. And then in category one is ultimate because in category one events, CIVL could stop the event, could declare it unpalatable. I mean, it has a full control. So in other words, in simple, I mean, this is an elaborated answer, but in simple

words, CIVL has a serious influence and when you're applying for category two, it should be followed. The rules are defined, the variations are They are existing, but they are somehow still usually within some acceptable limits. Got it. Just to clarify on one point,

Aninder: category one are the big ones. Category two is basically a blanket acceptance for every competition that is supposed to go under civil. So be it PWCA, be it SRS, be it Grand Prix, if they want to go under civil, they will go under category. Exactly. Awesome. Okay, great. I'm very curious about the licenses, Goran. You know, I've heard a lot about sporting license and then there's IPPI and then there's APPI, you know, doing their own thing. And of course the insurance and everything that comes with it. We have seen Gavin talk on his podcast about, you know, how important it is to carry the right insurance. So what, like, I think there are three big licenses that we're talking about right now. One is

APPI, one is IPPI, and the other is sporting license. Which license gives you access to category one and how to basically navigate that landscape? Okay. So now we're entering a tricky zone when there is, I mean, or maybe it's better to say intentionally gray zone, not by

Goran Dimiskovski: myself, but by the existing system. And what I will say, it will be seen as fairly controversial by certain people, but my position on this is well known in any kind of forum when I'm around and when I'm asked, I'm giving the same answer because it's a quite matured opinion. I'm working with this since an extremely long time. I have sufficient resources and information to know exactly what I'm saying. Got it. Whatever, whatever license apart from FAI sporting license is existing is first of all, unnecessary. It's partial manipulation, you know, in a, in a bad sense of the word, no, in a positive sense, it's manipulating people in organizations and it's only those other types of licenses that exist

existing because as I said in the beginning, because of the weakness of CWL or FAI to make a correct system around the globe. This is based on a structural problem. This is not based on incapable people. This is based on a fundamental conflict between the FAI statutes and how this organization is working. Because FAI is, I mean, it's a little bit going away from the topic, but it's important to, I will try to make it comprehensive. It's important to know that FAI basically is Federation of National Aero Clubs. So National Aero Clubs are organizations in countries. So in countries as recognized by UN, for example, in a country. These organizations, so called National Aero

Clubs, are members of FAI. So FAI is basically a compilation. It's a stream of its members. Not to go into too many details. what is the most important thing is that when you're a national club, the main article defining your relation with FAI is that you are governing the sport on your territory, word to word. So that means that National Club of Bolivia is governing the Paraguayan sport in their own country. So they should follow the rules of FAI and this, but then of course, if they're not following how you penalize, how you, you know, this is unrepleted territory. So basically, when a national club is paying fees to the FAI, he's becoming a customer. He's becoming a member of FAI. And with buying

his membership, he's getting the authority over his territory. This is not so far away from perhaps some feudal system. This is not so far away from the dark ages of human development. Very true. And then when a certain national club is buying the territory, then he can do whatever they want. And then they are imposing all sorts of crap to the pilots, to the organizations regarding licenses. For example, in civilized world, they are for free. In not so civilized world, they are for cheap. In a brutal world, they are very expensive. So because for a national club that is not well integrated into society, when you have a bunch of people that just, they can see an opportunity in this. They say, okay,

you would like to go to the world championship. So now you have to pay 1,000 euros for the license. So you're not getting the license. So you're not going to the world championship, despite the fact that you have sponsors, that you have money, that you have whatever. So now FAI is willing to support the system because it's working for them. Because their goal, their theoretical goal is the sport. But of course, there is another goal to run the organization. in order to run the organization with investment. Investment is coming from the National Clubs and some other sources, but National Clubs are primary source and then it's conflict of interest and it's game over. So that means that certain

people in certain countries, doesn't matter how good they are, how loyal they are, doesn't matter. They cannot get FA license. They cannot participate in Cat 1s and this is disaster. And that goes in all possible directions. So in certain countries, when the national clubs are strong, they are not giving the right people to compete in category two. So it's getting even worse. So then it's a massive push towards certain people to buy licenses or to do I don't know what in order to be able to get the license. So there is a filter imposed by certain countries. So that is giving... opportunity to third parties to introduce the licenses that will fulfill this gap when certain people would like to have

something in order to do something. This is ridiculous. It's messed up. Yes, it's totally messed up. In reality, I'm not criticizing this like a clever one. People that are within these problems, they are all very aware of what I'm saying. including FAI, including CIVL. All of us, we are trying to find a solution, but solution is complex because of this, because of how statutes are defined. And it's kind of a deadlock that people are not able to go out of it. So, you know, but we can witness this in the modern world, you know, neutral flag, Olympic flag is existing in order to cover the conflicts, in order to cover the irregularities, but it's not working well. So in FAI's case, there is FAI flag There is FAI. So

if you're not able to get the license in your country, FAI should provide the one for you. Because it should be a supervising power. But then it's also not working well because when FAI is providing to someone, it is interfering with the national co-op and they don't want to do it. So basically that door is closed as well. In a way. Or there are too many obstacles in order to get the license in that way. So Back to the original question, if the FAA license is working well, and it's really important to have it because it's not a document. This is something that is important to be properly understood, to really know what is it. FAA license is something like paying sanction fee for category two. FAA

license is not how good you are. This is not proficiency list. FAA license is a document. when you're taking one you're basically admitting the rules this is it so having a FAI license you're accepting the sporting code so you know anti-doping policy fair play policy this all the policies positive policies in the sports defined by the statute and you're accepting the rules under which competitions are executed that's it and people are manipulating this and because there is no sufficient amount of knowledge. It's the job of FI to provide sufficient knowledge, to travel around the world, to educate, but due to many reasons it's happening. So in simple words, whatever it is,

APPI, IPPI, tomorrow it will be some other I, doesn't matter. This is kind of vacuum-filled tools. I have nothing against these people. I have nothing against their work. Furthermore, I really appreciate what they are doing because they are not one to be blamed because they found a spot that they can manifest their capabilities and they can protect themselves. But the real reason is what I just explained. got it

Aninder: now this brings me to a dilemma because the cash is king is a big problem in a lot of industries you know and and especially when it comes to competing and and and human versus human finding reward and and all of that like cash negates that and when we bring in technology that also of course you know takes away a little bit of fun but having a sporting license Is that enough to get you inside category two? Or do you need an extra document on top of it? Because you said it's not a proficiency license. It's just ethics and it just fixes that. So where do APPI and

Aninder: IPPI licenses come in combination with sporting license? Well, that's a question of proficiency, as you said, for sure. But then also for that,

Goran Dimiskovski: there is a solution, which is part of a program developed years, years ago. And I mean, you know, I mean, if I go into details to explain all of it, I will need three days to speak, which is absolutely not feasible, let's say. But everything that we have, one of my first sentences was that there is nothing specific in Paraguay and that everything is invented. Everything is invented. You know, the proficiency levels are defined for piloting. Everybody knows that. The problem is how to enforce. And then again, the deadlock because National Aero Club is the one who needs to establish the system in their own country territory where they can provide the document to the pilot what is their proficiency level

according to the national training program. That simple. It's FAI job through the National Aero Club. You are living in Pakistan, you're having your national club. The national club is active in your country. They have a base of instructors, whatever. They have schools. They have a program. Then the student is going through the program, is getting the proficiency license of the country, which is defined, which is this level, that level, doesn't matter how it's called in which country. And then with that level synchronized with FI levels, You go to the comps. So it is a fair license and proficiency license that should give you a place into comp. Yes. I have a question. And this question is coming from

Aninder: William. This has happened with me. I'm an Indian pilot. And I basically moved to Europe to try and chase this whole ecosystem of racing pilots. India has the NAC, Aero Club of India, and that NAC has the capability to give you a sporting license, but it does not give you a proficiency license. That's simply because they're like, we don't have a structure to figure out, but you tell us how many hours you have flown, where all you have flown, and if you know some good pilots or some known names who can vouch for you, we'll issue you a sporting license based on goodwill. That's fine. If you're friends with everyone, if you're keeping people smiling and happy, deal. You have a sporting license. Now, I walk out

with a sporting license in Europe, and I walk into Norway, and I say that, hey, here's my sporting license. You have a FAI Category 2 competition. Let me compete. They don't let me in. Now, where did I go wrong, and what could a person in my situation do better to have a chance to compete in a Category 2 competition in a first-world country? That's a good question, but there is no defined answer on that because you're not the

Goran Dimiskovski: only one. We have these experiences all over the world. It's happening every single day to any, Austria is one of the, one of the countries with most frequent problems related to this, what you just explained. So the correct, the correct way is to check, which is not really easy. to correct the requirements in certain country before applying to the COMP and to fulfill according to their local regulations. That's why we have local regulations in every single event. At least now it's mandatory with EMS. You must put them in EMS in order to have this event sanctioned in the first place when someone like you or me going to a strange country or unknown country will be informed properly. So in

reality, in order to get the VPRS points, in order to get to be recognized within the frame of PIVL, there is nothing more that you need apart from the sporting glasses. So this is the requirement that international organization is pushing forward. So that means that in many, many events, there is no requirements for professional level. There is no such a thing. For example, in the World Cup, In the World Cup, there is no such a thing. There is no proficiency level because you are selecting people according to their results only. There is nothing else. That's why one very interesting approach, but unfortunately, it's constantly ignored. This is very advanced because your piece of paper

saying that you are good enough means nothing, totally nothing when you fly in a guzzle with 120 people. It's meaningless which kind of level you are or what what you are able to do. It's a specific type of experience in a specific environment. So that's why World Cup is looking at people only based on their personal results. So in World Cup, for years, FA license was not required. Even today, we are not insisting on it. Because in the World Cup, you will be accepted without license, but then you will be not ranked in the VPRS. Because in order to be ranked in the V Paris in the

world ranking system, then you need to go through certain steps, which is understandable because it's governed by certain authority. That authority would like for you to be a member of that structure in order to be ranked, which is totally acceptable. But in the World Cup, you can compete easily. You can compete based on your own results. So what your experience, just to sum it up, is... regulated most likely in the local regulations, when this particular organizer asked for this and that in order to accept you into COP. And there is no international tool, there is no international supervision that can help you overcome that obstacle if it's coming from the local rules in certain countries. All

Aninder: right, so let me understand. To get into World Cups, you need to have performance. You need to show results. To show results, you need to compete. And to compete, you need to be at the mercy of people to let you in to compete because there is no such structure which says that, yes, you are allowed to compete on a fair stage. So if in the beginning of your competition career, you do not make a lot of friends and you do not meet good people along the way, it can actually hamper your progress and there is no other way around it. Yes and no. Yes, because this is a

Goran Dimiskovski: simplified version of the truth, but no, because there is a way around it. It depends, of course, on your mobility and your motivation and your financials of course as well because there are option of getting a fail license if your national club is not feeling to give it to you, but they're painful. That's the problem. It's a long process. So for example, you said you're from India and you need a lot of friends in order to get one. So that means that if you do not have a lot of friends, you will not get one. If you are constantly refused by your national club, you need to address CIVL or competition for Elena, which are a particular case that will come to the CIVL Bureau and CIVL Bureau will decide to

accept you despite the fact that you do not have. Because if it's seen is a malfunction of the system. That's why I said CIVL is very positive for it. Because CIVL, of course, is bind by the rules that we are making. But we are also pilots and humans like you, like whoever. And we also understand all these problems. So CIVL Bureau has the power to make a Bureau decision. It's not mine or yours. It's Bureau decision. So it's a group of 10 people, 11. So you have the power to say, okay, due to malfunctions of Indian National Club, Pilot B will get the license, or will not get license, but it will be scored, and he will be accepted into the VPRS. And like this, you will have your results listed in the VPRS,

yes. Yeah. Now, the dilemma comes, I had a sporting license from the NAC. But category two in Norway did not allow me to compete. So if I don't, if I

Aninder: meet similar category two competition organizers in Spain or anywhere else in the beginning of my career, how do I build up my CV that tells you guys that I am good enough to be a World Cup pilot? Like, where should I put it? I don't like what I'm going to say, but it is true. Yes, the only way for

Goran Dimiskovski: you is to, not for you, for anyone, is to search environments. countries and competitions, they do not have such rigid things. For example, I will tell you, I mean,

personal examples. We are with my partner, Martin Jovanovski, we are organizing many COPs in our country, in North Macedonia. We do not have these requirements. It's not me, it's the national club. Our national club is a small structure, very positive, very pilot-orientated. We know the problems, we know all of this. So in our events, it's only FA left that is required. only because the events that we are organizing are adjusted and we have full control over the events. you have a professional staff that is taking care about your level. So for me, you coming with IPP, this and that or whatever, it's meaningless because what is important for me, it's truly to have you within a controlled

environment when you can perform within your personal limits and not a single, for me, it's some kind of paper is meaningless. But of course, as you mentioned, Gavin, then it's linked with your insurance and then you must have insurance. And this is when things are getting tricky. Certain insurances are willing to do a bunch of documents in order to be given to you and so forth and so on. So basically, if you ask me, for people that are not able to get some proficiency documents, the correct way would be to have an FAA sporting license and to have a proper insurance to be able to join comps around the globe that are not that rigid regarding the proficiency documents. True. Well, thank you for that clarity,

Aninder: because this has eaten me up for so many months. And I'm sure there are other pilots who are in similar situations. So I hope this can address some of that. But anyways, Goran, without further ado, I think we should quickly address one of the last few topics before your time runs out. And I know you're on a very tight schedule. I wanted to get your idea on the safety aspect and the security aspect of our sport, because you have been at one of the forefronts. You have seen the sport from the top, and you have seen how it has evolved. My curiosity is centered on the fact

that aviation and fatigue or pushing limits is a very risky combination. Like humans are not born to fly. However, we have these machines that allow us to do it. And when we talk about paragliders, like paragliders are collapsible wings which can literally go anywhere at a given moment's notice because of invisible air. Paragliding World Cups have goggles which are pretty much getting aggressive constantly. People are pushing the limits. Hike and fly, we see people pushing the limits in dangerous weather situations, stuff like that. What ideology does an organizer hold when it comes to making sure everybody is there to have fun and compete but not pay the highest price?

How do you as an organizer navigate that question? Well, it is a tricky question because whatever answer I give or whoever speak on the topic

Goran Dimiskovski: could be challenged or could be even seen as a wrong propaganda. But my personal principles and what I truly believe is a straightforward formula. And first of all, there is no, in whatever competition system, doesn't matter what the sport is, There is no such system like global safety umbrella. This thing is illusion. In the organizations with the maximum investment, like Formula One and similar, you can see that they have small safety devices being introduced, usually after some kind of serious debacle. Usually. So that means that the absolute safety net around a person practicing something It's illusion. It's not existent. So if you accept this, then the things are getting simpler. In

paragliding comps, this is a very well established idea. And I think it's the only true safety measure. In paragliding comps, and especially in the World Cup, the only real safety measure is the pilot quality. That's it. This is it. I mean, I can speak about many other factors and for sure they will be valid, but if we need to point at one particular safety factor, it's not the equipment, it's not the weather, it's not because all of these things are predictable. All of these things, you more or less, you know what to expect with certain amount of certainty, let's say. But the biological quality is something that is straightforward. You have high pilot quality. The

risk is getting minimalized. We have a low pilot quality. The safety risk is maximized. That's it. You know, and that's why World Cup is so meticulous. So persistent into selecting pilots based on results only. We have a letter system. It's fairly complex, but it's, it's, it's creating fairly narrow windows of, of similar quality pilots. So it's not one, two, three, four, five, but in one, we have three, four, five slots because those people are performing very close to each other. It's A pilots, then B pilots, then C pilots. These letters are coming from their performance on other events. We have a system covered. So when we select pilots, you go through the letter system and then when we

finish with the letter C or D, which is the top pilots in the world, you know, for sure you may have an accident or for sure you make a collision and we have them. But you know that when you have an accident, it's not because the pilot was not fit. Okay. Okay. Then when you, that's why I'm so let's say fed up with this proficiency, uh, documents, the real proficiency in motor cross country, or I can fly as well. It's has nothing to do with someone telling you, ah, you're good enough. There is no such a authority, you know, because when you are top performing pilot, In this moment in the World Cup, for example, there is no authority above you to tell you how you're good enough. Who is that guy?

Who is that authority? By which standards? Because the skill to fly aggressively, as you said, in the company of 125 pilots around you, in a fairly strong and chilling weather, this is the ultimate level. You know, there is no more. And you ended up there due to your results. This is the, you know, the rest of it is like for any other sport, you know. choosing the site of course for example the way how we choose the latest world championship in france it was the only the only bit for that championship so basically there is no choosing this is this is it it is a very famous famous place it is a top organ everything was in place but the place itself is challenging and then in such a place with in the middle of

the alps such a strong weather with such a wind pattern with people all over the globe coming into this alpine You know, the only defense is the pilot. Because the rest is so challenging that you cannot cover it up with any kind of safety measure, not with the dust setting, you know, because it's complicated anyway. This reminds me of an incident, Burhan, if you allow me. Let's go back to 2013 Superfight in Colombia. I

Aninder: was reading a cross-country magazine. I was just researching about this episode. And it said there was a thermal of 19 meters per second that was being circled by a lot of competition links, like triple C, like heavy hot links. And a pilot called Yasin Sevo basically deployed and almost went in the fire, barely saved himself. I don't know the whole story because I just read a very small excerpt. Now, of course, any pilot who's going into the thermal is, A, wanting to get high quickly. So he wants to kind of push the limit. He is in the competition. So he's definitely capable of pushing the limits, as you mentioned that there is some quality. As a competitor, there are some things that you don't

think about because that organizers have taken care of. And then there are other things that you have to think about, which is really that is like, you know, am I hydrated, putting my best foot forward? Am I pushing the bar enough or like basically going out and putting in the hard work? So when it comes to forgetting about what the organizers have dealt with, and then there is a thermal like that, which is out there in the open. Of course, organizers can say, forget it. But if you want to be the best, you cannot forget it because that is allowed by the organization. And same goes for Hike and Fly, even in the XL. I'm not going to shy away from taking names because I think this area is not addressed enough in

Aninder: our sport. XAlps has pilots taking off in absolutely crazy windy situations and landing in rain and all of that. But I don't blame the pilot because the pilot wants to be the best in the world or like, you know, win the glory. But if the organizer is allowing an aircraft and a pilot to put themselves in that situation, then where are we drawing the line between risking it all just for the sake of fun? I mean, you're not going to be an immortal Olympic legend by the end of it, right? Even if it was that, there's nothing worth risking your very existence just to get on the podium. So it just blows my mind if you can clarify something like this. You know, I'm really glad that you mentioned this example in

Goran Dimiskovski: Colombia and Yasin Samov, because I've been comfortable enough. He's a very good friend of mine. Okay. to answer to you in one sentence, which is a well-known sentence. Nobody can stop you with your own stupidity. This is it. In the Yasen Savov case, it's simple as that because it is not a turmoil, what you are saying. It is a big, big fire. In that event, our organizer, I respect that guy a lot. It was Lucho Jimenez, a famous organizer in Colombia. I like that guy a lot because he is very serious. He is He knows what he is doing. He knows the place. So when you go to pumps,

you are in good hands. And then they have a habit in Colombia due to some agricultural needs to burn the fields. And it's forbidden by the law. So the way how they are burning fields is a very criminal way. So they come with big canisters of petrol. They put the petrol rapidly. They burn all of it rapidly. And then they disappear before they are caught by the police. So every single day, every single briefing, Lucho and the locals are already explaining how crazy dangerous it is because it pulls into the air in minutes. It has this enormous amount of fire and all the, not thermals, but updrafts going crazy speeds up and everybody's warned not to do it. But then there are certain characters in our world,

like in any other world, that are... They are willing to experiment, they are willing, as you said, to push the limit beyond reasonable. So Adaksen was just a centimeter's close to pay this stupidity with his life. Because when he opened the rescue, when he opened the rescue, and he fell just meters away from the fire, he could have ended up in the fire, and my dear good friend from Bulgaria could be just a burnt meat. And then this is nothing to be addressed with competition flying with organizers with World Cup. This is personal stupidity and decision-making of one particular guy. And I hope that he will see this because I spoke with him yesterday. I hope that he will rethink his, but

in the meantime, he became much more responsible. And, you know, these kinds of examples and these kinds of extreme, extreme things, like in Ixos and everything, You know, we have to be, we have to be real. I mean, we have to understand the drive behind these things. You know, you go into, I mean, XOps is a gladiator's movie. This is, this is, this is, I mean, no, XOps is, we should never forget. XOps is not the event. XOps is the product. So this is event is a tool of the product, is a marketing tool of the product. So in the marketing sense, everything is justified. But

rules are known. Marketing rules are known to every single participant. Nothing to do with the results. Nothing to do with the mid-director. Nothing to do with the guys. They are having a certain package offered to certain participants with acceptance. The story about safety is finished because those people, those sportsmen that absolutely are one of the best in the world, with their commitment, with their capabilities, with their knowledge, they are literally accepting the risk, including life-threatening situations. So, you know, it's not much different than, I don't know, 24 hours of Le Mans races at a time or whatever. It's just pushing to the extreme limits and extreme everything. So, yeah, you're not forced. It's not a circuit. It's not Olympic. It's kind of marketing campaign for a product. So,

yeah. I love your honesty, Goran, and I wish every single guest was able to do this so honestly, because people don't talk about this aspect of

Aninder: the sport very openly. So thank you so much for bringing out that perspective so transparently. Insane amount of value to our sport and the audience. I quickly want to dive into the manufacturer side of this from the PWCA, because as you know, it's there written in the beginning of your homepage that PWCA is helping R&D. We have multiple marketing campaigns run by top companies. We have short nodes, we have wave design, we have RAST coming in, we have different kinds of things. When it comes to level playing field and just human factor, Are we eventually ever going to look at standardization of equipment to a point where it literally is the same, like it's in Formula 1? You have the budget, you

Aninder: have tech, but there is a standardization which does not deviate. However, in this sport, every other time we have Gambit coming in saying that ours is the fastest, and there are some people who are not improving it. And then there's Jim coming in and saying, hey, this is revolutionary. So what... What question it puts to me is that if I am going out on the market and trying to buy a glider, is the glider making me win or is it my own things making me win? And then where is the fairness of competing coming in? If you can throw some small light on this, because I

remember the time when Gambit and Spectra were not allowed. in one of these comps. And I don't know if it was FAI or if it was civil or something, but there was a lot of talk like, why aren't we allowing people to bring in? So it's like, if you can throw some light on this aspect of the sport.

Goran Dimiskovski: Yeah, there are a few interesting topics within this question. I was in the middle of it and I believe we did the correct thing, but that was not one of the brightest moments in Paralympic history. So we did the right thing, but it was painful and ugly. So I hope it will not repeat itself. Gambit was banned. It was in the Worlds 2019. And it was just out of the comp, just before the comp with a controversial vote of team leaders. Because what they want, what I want, what we wanted is to avoid the mistakes from the past. When something so controversial is winning the event. You know, like we had in Super Final 2010 with the first edition of two-liners. know when shockers were one because you know it was such a

difference it was such such such i know how to say it was futile it was pointless come you know you that it was so superior over the others that it was totally pointless to it was disappointment instead of bigger celebration so this thing about how you regulate this these enormous let's say maybe progress points in certain If they're happening in a short amount of time and then you're just faced with them, it's a very big topic. There are some tools around, some rules, but it's not well, still controversial. So this could be, I mean, honestly, this could be qualified as a failure of the system having this happening. These things should be clarified much before. So the second part of your

question, which is, Standardization, you know, in a philosophical sense, that goes to the theory of relativity, you know, that far. Because what you said, a fully standardized equipment for, in order to measure the performance of a man, of a woman, of a human, it's, of course, it's possible. But in this moment, it's a parallel reality. It's not something that these people now, in the sport, And these companies now, being in the forefront of development, are appealing to have. It's not about is it possible or is it right? It's about what kind of government or what kind of parliament you have and which kind of laws are produced by those people. In some different setup of people, not in different time,

in the very same time, in some different setup of people, it could be easily possible. There is nothing preventing us from doing it. So there is also, it's important to understand there is no right or wrong. Both are right or both are wrong, but I think both are right. Why? Because ultimately standardized systems are working in many sports, but with a huge list of

factors that needs to be achieved before you reach that standardization. Because standardization in a way, in a small sport like ours, and it's, I mean, in the easiest way to explain is decreasing the intrigue And is it decreasing the, the, the, the, the fame and, and, and this, um, this glory around something, you know, standardized things are simply not so attractive to the companies, to the pilots, to anyone. I can give you, I will give you one very good example, how crazy parallel world it is. In the, when we had EnsoGate in 2013 super final, it doesn't matter what

When we hit the Enzo gate, it was a very ugly story when, obviously, the winning glider and the glider that is, how to say, the best ever, is absolutely out of force. It's a chicken. So, as organizers, we are facing a very difficult situation where we need to disqualify two-thirds of the field. More than half of it. And we did it. We did it. It was a very controversial thing. I was under huge pressure from the organizers, from the manufacturers, from Ozon, from Liviuk to penalize. It was a big, big mess. I'm telling you this to understand why standardization is not good. People having those gliders, they were cheated. So they paid for something that was a product that were light.

It's certified. So they were victims. The owner of those at the time, he said, okay, we lost this game. We're going to repay to every single pilot that suffered out of his loss. So they tried to solve the problem. There was many of intermediate steps. In the beginning, it was, no, it's not cheating. But finally, it ended up cheating. So he offered a refund to every single pilot willing to be refunded. You know how many pilots requested a refund and give the value back? Please tell us. Zero. Zero. Wow. Not a single one. Because this paragliding, and this is very important to be properly understood, this is like a drug. Having a better flying machine, having a better glider, being superior over

others, because everybody knew Ozone is a very capable company, having very capable people inside. So they managed to certify their glider after a certain amount of time. Wow. So those gliders, those people, they did not lose anything. Finally, after a few months, they were on certified gliders and they became. But for that particular super final, entire trip to Brazil, all the accommodation, all the air tickets, whatever is agreed, everything went to the bin. So if you carefully analyze this, you will see how much this push of these people now these days is against standardization. They would like to have the latest thing they would like to have at the vintage. You know, there is

this famous book from Dennis Page on performance flying. Yeah. And on the last page, among the last pages, there is one, one like small chapter saying, what is the easiest way to win a comp? You know, what is the easiest way to win the comp? You can take a look later on. To have the best equipment. Yeah. And standardization, it's my sentence, Dennis Page. You know, so. standardization is cutting that option. And if it is standardized, yeah. It brings me back to the point where FAI went wrong, Goran. If we are eventually bringing cash as king into the equation,

Aninder: there is going to be no hope, man. It seems to be like a lost cause.

Goran Dimiskovski: Well, I'm not a pessimistic, you know. To me, you know, we are living, as I said many times during this interview, you know, we are living in a real world. We are not operating in some kind of bubble or something. You're exposed to all the natural movements of society and economics and whatever. So we're just practicing something within a well- known structure. And this well-known structure is one of the reasons why things are like they are now. That's why I said many, many times, you know, In certain circumstances, in certain set up of people, you know, now on Thursday, in two days, I'm going to Korea for the CABL meeting, which is in the plenary, of course, when all the rules, category one

rules are reviewed. So, you know, the proposals this year are so radical, like never before. So as I said, certain amount of things. with certain amount of people can take very, very different direction. So now we're discussing some, some, some very serious departure from the competition world that like we, we have now it's, you're going into possibly into individual world championship, but people will compete on the individual basis, not related to the nations and many, many other things, you know? So from that perspective, things could be changed in any direction at any time, but

Aninder: if this is one thing that I'm super thankful for you that is your honesty and your braveness with coming with it and you know that basically all I'm trying to say is that if we keep on pushing into this this will turn into an endless conversation that is so enriching and because you're bringing it in such good manner it's like yeah it's a gold mine for me and I'm pretty sure for the rest of you as well but you know since we are closing in on time and I understand both of us have like very limited time in this one I just want to get your closing thoughts on what's coming,

Aninder: what's next, what is the future of PWCA? Why should we be excited? Well, you know, World Cup...

Goran Dimiskovski: Again, it's nothing sensational. The World Cup doesn't want to have a next best thing. We do not want that, you know. This is...

This is, this is something that, I mean, people that know me and that they know that the way how Roscop operates, they will fully understand what I'm saying. You know, we reached the, we reached the point of maturity and we reached the point, we reached, we have a running system and what we would like to, Kevin, to provide is to have professional serious organizers providing professional serious services for the competitors. that simple. We do not need the next best thing like now we will have a satellite artificial intelligence live commentary from the stars. We are not in that sort of business and we do not want to be in that sort of business. What we would like to have is to have a decent media

coverage when people are informed what's happening, what is the latest in the piloting. For example, now in the super final in in brazilian in just few days i truly believe we have a sensational thing by any standards which is finally we will have gene gene race 5 competing in parallel with osman submarines wow yes on on a proper scale not one or two or three so it's available commercially so you know these kinds of things has nothing to do with the biggest next thing this is just ordinary sportsman world. That's what I'm looking for. You know, what we would like to have is to have a decent output from our core business, which is organizing comps on the highest level. That's it. Nothing to do

with the flashy stuff, nothing to do with some break new or whatever. We are bringing breakthroughs in, in, in, in, on the technical level, the fly master with always hearing the latest software, always hearing the latest retrieval system. always hearing whatever is latest within the technology, but making comps more enjoyable. And from the rest of the world, it could be just the thing like all the time before, you know, it's always the same thing. If you go, you have a comp, you have the winners, you have the podiums, you shake hands, and then again and again and again. This is called maturity of the sport. This is called maturity of one organization. Nothing sensational, just doing it. Okay. Wow,

Aninder: Goran, I love your honesty. And basically, I mean, I know I keep on saying this, but long story short, the professionalism you have, the drive you have, it explains why you have been at the forefront of this for 30 years. And I wish you all the luck. And to be honest, the question's endless, which means we will bring you, we would love to bring you back for another episode, hopefully sometime very soon. Keep rocking. You're an inspiration. Thank you so much. You're welcome, anything.