Insights From The Gaggle with Tilen Ceglar & Stan Radzikowski

Aninder Singh: hello and welcome back to Paragliding Atlas podcast. I'm your host, Aninha Singh, and joining me today are two of the most experienced pilots straight from the goggle of World Cup Racing Tillen and Stan, very warm, welcome to you guys. How's it going

Stan: Thank you very much. Really good.

Aninder Singh: guys? Um, a lot has been said and done, uh, the past couple of weeks on, you know, public portals in various, um, streams of paragliding, uh, more or less broadly. The talk is about how to make it more accessible and fun. Uh, you know, the first question that comes to my mind is that what are the views from the core group?

First thoughts that are going on in, in, in, in your heads considering about what's going on.

Tilen: Yeah, I think, um. We are clearly lacking, like, [00:01:00] um, a development of sport. Basically what I've experienced in the last couple of years is just we are continuing to do basically, you know, to maintain status quo and the competition seen. And it's all the mistakes and all the, the bad things have been accumulating for a while now. and now we're at the moment where things has escalated due to basically things, uh, adding up. Um, so that's kind of my main, my main, um, point of view here. We need a certain development of the sport in the right direction. We, at the moment, I just don't see it.

Aninder Singh: Fair enough. Stan. Stan, I believe you have been in the competition scene, uh, as well for a while. Um, what's, uh, how do you look at it from, I also, from a decade or more worth of experience? I think you've been, you've been racing for way longer than that.

Stan: Yeah, I've been, um, probably racing for 15 years. Um, [00:02:00] yeah, I think the, the main problem is that nothing's actually changing, uh, for, for the last probably five or six years, any types of rules that have been implemented or changed. It's just like a, a teeny tiny tweak to some random rule that isn't enforced anyway, because they'll have three hour conversations about cloud flying, but nothing's ever actually done about it when, when someone does it.

Um, so I think the main reason that people are frustrated is that we're still having the major problems and everyone's focusing on the teeny tiny details of things that are a non-issue anyway.

Aninder Singh: Fair enough guys. Um. It makes me wonder, and I'm pretty sure everybody in the audience can relate to this as well, we have a fair bit of professionalism in this sport. Uh, there is enough amounts of monetary gain, which is keeping the [00:03:00] manufacturers interested. Uh, the field, even though it's a niche, one is broad and wide. Are we messing up somewhere in the hierarchy where we are having power or like, let's say responsibility in through channels, which is kind of steam rolling the whole thing and bringing it to a grinding halt when it comes to making the actual change, rather than just talking about in Aries and discussion forums.

Tilen: Uh, yeah, definitely. I think there's a clear disconnect between, um, the, the organizations that run the sports such as CIVL and basically, uh, the pilots, even though they will claim themselves, they are, you know, from pilots for pilots kind of thingy. But that's, it's when you go to enough of these events, you clearly see they are living on a, on a different planet, if I can say that. Um, they're not handling a stance, they're [00:04:00] not really looking at the sport and identifying or even understanding the main issues that we have. Um, you know, when there is an upset, they always just, um, go and fix some random thing that's kind of easy-ish, even though it has no influence. So the main problem still, is there.

And, um, yeah, it all comes down that basically the group, the CIVL is somehow, um, and it's a closed circle, which also organize and run these events. So the politics themselves, um, you know, are also part of the technical, let's say part. organizing, granting, yada yada. And I guess they just like this type of score.

They can just keep the, the turn, uh, the, the wheel turning. Um, as long as they get hundred and something pilots show up to the races, you know, they're all happy, there's no problem. [00:05:00] Yeah. You know, then occasionally we have a fatality or two, they try to be silent, then they kind of hide under the table.

And if people don't react, goes away. If they react like they did now with the CIVL design movement and the whole, the whole thing exploding, then they try to come up with some, know, cosmetic, um,

Aninder Singh: Cover up.

Tilen: they never really look in the mirror. Yeah. They never really look in the mirror. They never really even ask for feedback from us, which is, which is crazy. so I heard from, like, I, I was at the World Championship where we had brain from, uh, Belgium unfortunately died during, uh, like an accident that was quite. Controversial, let's say. Um, and after that, I heard through different channels, say we will get a survey for feedback and so on. We didn't receive anything and it's been a month already, so this kind of, you know, there's some [00:06:00] talk, there's no action, and that's kind of the, the

Aninder Singh: I thank you for being so, you know, blunt about it, uh, til we, we need more people, uh, to present the facts as they are rather than distorting them. Um, I, you know, when you, when you were speaking these, uh, these answers, uh, to this question, I was very tempted to bring in a lighter moment and saying that, who doesn't like the status quo?

We all love the attention and the fame that comes with it. So I, I don't deny, uh, I, I mean, I don't denounce the one higher ups to have this human behavior in this, but before I dwell further on the spot, I'm pretty sure a lot of audience members are curious because I was also at one point, would you be comfortable sharing.

Uh, the shareable details, um, of the accident at, uh, worlds because even right now there is a certain bit of information, but it's just that this happened, uh, in the public domain, if you have to go into the [00:07:00] details of it and, and the whole thing that happened that it's like in hidden in the comments or in the dms of very selected few pilots.

Aninder Singh: So I, I just want to put it out in the public portal. What happened in Brazil that has made this whole thing go around?

Tilen: Okay, so I, I can give my point of view. I'll try to be short because the story is not just the, the, the event, the accident itself, but it starts a few months, uh, prior to the competition. So we were supposed to have the competition in Andras. Uh, we ended up in Castillo. will never really, um, know, get the truth about why it was changed.

There are only rumors and speculations, but the fact is, you know, five months before the event, uh, the venue changed, um, and Castello in, in October, in September is known to have quite a lot of Seabury strong winds on the

Aninder Singh: And that's like a known fact, ev even the organizers like it's, it's [00:08:00] there.

Tilen: and this was, yeah. And this was basically, uh, communicated to us from the Brazilian fellow pilots. They were. this decision. They were saying it's, we all know it's gonna be tricky, it's gonna be dangerous. Uh, then, uh, we went there nevertheless, um, we did experience basically like few days, maybe not, but then later on we did get to see that the, the sea breeze is quite serious. He's quite strong.

And, and especially the low level, higher up, there's no sea breeze lower down. There's quite a lot. And then we come to the, to the task where we had the accident. So basically due to the forecast that was strong northwest wind, I think. Um, and the fact that around Castello you have quite mountainous re regions region, right?

So the, the landings are not, mean they're plenty, but it's not flat, right? Let's say that, let's put that way. So they, we kind of, I think from the pilots and so on, we [00:09:00] kind of, um, request that if we can fly more, we the wind. And also land somewhere down there like, and then, uh, in the evening there was a new turn point for a goal that they set up. actually it was not really checked the next morning somebody went there and checked that it's actually Lendable

Aninder Singh: You mean one of the pilots or the organizers?

Tilen: No, no, the organizers, no. They sent someone in the morning there to check, okay, it's a big

Aninder Singh: Is, is, is is this standard practice, uh, according to your decades worth of experience, Stan, uh, do people only check everything warning, or, or is it like very.

Stan: no. Look there, there, there's been occasions where, for example, you know, you'll have a situation where a landowner gets annoyed at the organization because they didn't want to give them their 500 euro or whatever, and they'll say, okay, you're not allowed to use the official landing. And in those situations, okay, they might put a new landing somewhere different, [00:10:00] but.

Normally it's an official landing that's been checked, that's been used prior, especially for an event like the World's, um, they, you have to have an idiot proof. It has to be proven. It has to be checked over, you know, at least two, three different events that everything's safe. Um, and,

Aninder Singh: level comp.

Stan: yeah, look at, at the higher level, you're going to expect that people are gonna be coming into goal relatively low.

Like everyone wants to get there first. So it's not gonna be that 150 pilots are arriving at 3000 meters, you know? Um, and just the terrain. Like I, I wasn't there this year because I, I already said two years ago to my wife that I'll, I won't go to Brazil for another comp. Uh, definitely not Costello. [00:11:00] Uh, I don't think the safety's up to par there.

And like Tylen was saying, the, the, the area where they were setting up the goals, I was looking at the live tracking and I was scratching my head like, what the hell are they doing? Because ev pretty much every task they were flying towards the sea breeze into a place where there's undulating hills. Uh, you've got hills with wires running from top to top of a hill across the valley that you can't see from the air.

Um, and with the sea breeze that's coming in, it's, it's quite a strong place. And because of the undulation of the terrain, it, it just gets super rough at times. Uh, and I think that's, that's some of the comments that we saw from, from the pilots. Confirm

Aninder Singh: Fair enough. Fair enough. Stan, um, I'm, I'm sorry to break your thought process, uh, in there, Tilian. Uh, my idea was to just try and connect the dots. So let's say change of venue five months [00:12:00] ago. The protest ignored after that, the turn point, which was checked only 24 hours prior or less than that. And then as Stan mentioned, task setting.

So there are like, you know, three clear cut because as we usually speak in aviation or in paragliding as well, that it's not one single mistake that leads to a catastrophe. It is a series of combination of errors. So I think we have organized three or four important points, but please continue. You are talking about the turn point being checked, that's, uh, yeah.

Tilen: Yeah. So, um, then the task was set and, um, the task, uh, and this, as I mentioned before, the, the problem with the CBC or the, the wind there in general was that it was very, it was always just on the low level. So when we were flying, the task call was fine. That day was, was kind of good, no issues there.

And then we came to the goal re relatively high, and I think pretty much everyone, including brand, we arrived higher relatively high [00:13:00] now to be, to be honest, and to be, um, also, you know, I need to point out that, that the way they made goal, it was not a line, it was a cylinder. Um, it basically where the goal was there was a open space, basically a small, I mean, not really valley, because the hills there are like up to 50 meters maybe. and it was grass everywhere, even on the, on the, on the top of the hills. So if you, if you wish to, you could land on top of a hill or just somewhere, and still being gold. So it was not a problem of like really reaching the, the line. what's was the problem is that basically, uh, the gold field was behind, um, a hill. So it was in a lee side from the wind and the road was next to the hill. So we, when we come to the goal, you wanna land as close as possible to the buses to, to the retrieve. So you don't need to walk through the

Aninder Singh: It's a human [00:14:00] psyche. Yeah.

Tilen: Uh, it, it's kind of, you know, you do it out of convenience. You try to, you know, try to land as, as close as possible. Um, and when we were, when I, like, at least when I came to the goal, I was a few hundred meters above. And I wanted to assess the wind. So I kind of went into the winds, released everything, and I was seeing that I was standing still. So we had kind of gusts, you know, I guess two 40 kilometers an hour or 30. serious wind, pretty much. so I went to land in that field behind the hill, but a few hundred, like maybe a hundred, 200 meters away from it. it was still, okay. It was not sketchy, but you could see, you know, it was, it was not easy. You definitely a hundred percent focus was needed. Um, and then what I saw, what happened with brames, unfortunately, he made the goal. you know, he had [00:15:00] basically the chance to land on the hill or in the valley in front of it, like up wind. Um, so, you know, to be clear, he could have made that decision. He did not, he, he went over the hill relatively low towards basically where all the other pilots were, were landing, and then had the collapse.

And we basically, because it was so low, um, you know, and the way he, the impact the ground was really with the, the front of his body. So it, that had just, you know, um, serious, um, serious consequences. Um, so when I analyzed what happened, 'cause we were all shocked. We saw it basically from the, you know, you, you could see him and you could see the impact.

And we all knew that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really serious. So my, my analyst, uh, analysis of that was like, yeah, he could have landed on the other side, but in his position I would do the [00:16:00] same. I would go there for convenience to land as close as possible to to, to the others. Uh, so it's a very, you know, it's, that's why I wanted.

I think that's why it's important, important to put it in context. You know, accident can be put down to the human error at the end. You're responsible for everything you do in there. But kind of all the sequence of events and all the, the, the circumstances around it do have a huge influence of what, what you decide. And this was again, um, it was not during racing, it was after we were in goal already. the fact that, you know, even after, after then this incident requested, like, you know, in the gold field, they put tents, like for shades for us to, to pack the gliders for, have some beverages, some food. So we requested, oh, okay.

Guys, always put distance in a place where it's safe to land. You know, don't put it in the le in the rotor, in the lee side. Put it maybe on [00:17:00] the other side, even though the buses might be somewhere else. Just as a signal for pilots when you come high. You don't know really the, the conditions on the ground, you would, we would always aim for these tents. Um, so this was something that was only considered after. Right. Uh, which is, I mean, this should have come from, from experience and Okay. The organizers think a still ahead, you know, organized a few events prior to, to this, uh, world championships, like even World Cup, never in October. It was always in, in March.

Uh, where the conditions are

Stan: And, and even, even in March, you get the days where the sea breeze comes in, where it's, where it's not as reliably coming to the task area. And on those days it's, it's, you know, terror sometimes. So,

Aninder Singh: enough guys. Thank you for the elaboration. [00:18:00] Um, on this one, I just wanna follow it up for, uh, the convenience of our listeners. It all started with the change of venue five months ago. Um, the task setting was questionable as the event got closer, considering the wind directions. The goal location itself was not the most convenient one, as per the pilots who were making it and analyzing the whole track logs.

Um, turn point, as you mentioned, uh, was, uh, basically left to last minute. And then the post-incident behavior, I think that is, which got the ball rolling. Um, we do tend to accept. A certain bit of risk, which we call in the acceptable category, but when some things has gone downhill and if the actions or the way things work are still not up to the mark, [00:19:00] that is kind of sad.

So I just wanna get to the, like, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not saying, uh, the organizers are wrong. I'm not saying the. Competitors are being harsh or were being ignorant in the first place. Um, all I'm saying is that there has been a trickle down effect of accumulated flaws. So, um, maybe, maybe this is a good point.

Good, uh, intersection where I would like to get the audience members have their opinion down in the comments on which streaming platform you listen to. Um, so far this is the side of story of the racing pilots. I have reached out to the organizers. I have try and tried and make contact with the plenary and I'm waiting to hear their part, but whatever information has come to you guys so far, do you see any real sorts of improvements that could have prevented another fatality, which we are calling just another fatality [00:20:00] because we have been calling every, like these fatalities are life-changing for some on this planet.

But for us as a community, it's like just another fatality, and we kind of keep on moving from one to the other, to the other until we lose someone super close. Or God forbid if we happen to be in that seat, then of course, you know, we, we don't know what's the course of action. So just let me know your point of view.

I just want to know how the community is thinking in broader numbers in here. But anyways, Tilian, um, I, I, uh, Stan, I'll get back to you on this one again, but, um, once the, the carnage was over, once the, uh, pilots decided to go back to racing again, the organizers said, we are doing everything we can because I believe bra, uh, Bram is, uh, his name is BRAM. Um, uh, I hope you rest in peace, Bram. Uh, but all I'm saying is [00:21:00] once. He was put in induced coma and unfortunately could not make it. Can you please tell us the course of action then? Because I think that is when the whole uh, talk started happening and it decided to go public.

Tilen: Um, yeah, so this happened, um, after the race when we went home already. Um, things have started prior to that. It was just basically not public. It was more in the background. Actually, right after that incident, um, you know, the, the Julian Garcia, the French team leader, was already pushing or basically requesting handling of the competition there on the, on the spot. Um, there was, I know from sources there was, so every f uh, category one event has FAE [00:22:00] stewards, which are there, which they're supposed to be there um, to help and just be advisory to the org local organizer. And then you have a FE jury, which is there basically look over the operation and, you know, if something needs to be stopped or changed or like he can intervene only when it's of gets really extreme. So what happened is the, like, um, the first few days we didn't really have any doctors at the takeoff. So when Violeta on first day crashed, it was the French team doctor and the German team doctor that took care of her.

Aninder Singh: Uh, I have a question. Uh, is it it by rule, uh, by regulations that an ambulance and a doctor should be available at an event of such a level?

Tilen: I believe so, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. Usually I think Stan would, would know more with,

Stan: Yeah. Well, I, I, I think at a [00:23:00] category one, it's, it's, it's in the rules that it's at landing and, uh, and takeoff with a rescue team that's meant to be at takeoff. Um, but yeah, like it's the quality that the local, uh, rescue and medical teams are is it's questionable. Um, you know, my brother was, uh, was in Brazil.

He broke his arm two years ago, the ambulance came and he had to stabilize his own hand because the doctor didn't know how to do it,

Aninder Singh: What country is

Stan: so in, in Brazil it was in Costello.

Aninder Singh: Wow. The doctor doesn't know how to stabilize a hand.

Stan: So, so I think what's presented at takeoff, I, I don't know the quality that's, that's there and, and for the last several years. Every, every one of the major competitions, [00:24:00] the French doctors have had to do something like, like, uh, I don't know if PHI or civil or PWC pays the French doctors anything, but they should because they're, they're picking up the, the slack.

Tilen: And here was a similar case. Um, we had, rescue on Takeoff, I think like first responders. Um, and from, again, I'm not a doctor, I don't know about this, but what I've heard is, yeah, the, the, the level, uh, of knowledge there was not sufficient. Um, you know, especially for viol latest, um, basically she, she crashed and hit her ankle and it had a severe cut and open wound and so on. Um, so basically the, the, the, the French doctor took care of that now, uh, to going back. So [00:25:00] the f fa e jury, uh, after a few days, um, had put an ultimate to the organi organization, says either we bring real doctors to takeoff or we stop the whole competition. And then all of a sudden next day we did have two of them. Before it was kind of impossible. And then we had, so, um, I'm saying things have been, you know, it's not this, like was happening in between. Um, also the way basically is all the discussions started within the pilots first. also basically, you know, we had more and more pilots deciding just, I won't take, like, I'm not comfortable anymore flying here. So they just didn't take off. If there was wing, um, forecasted, they would just say, you know, I'm out. Um, which is, I mean, you know, this is a world championships. It, you know, you, you plan, this is like a, uh, event that we all like, kind of [00:26:00] try to do our best and so on, and it pushes you into a corner to say basically, you know what I, I type out like this is, this is too much. and then, yeah, basically when it went viral is, uh, brand has passed away. We got to know this from basically Belgium pilots that were still in the chat and there was no response, no nothing from FAI. And then pilots start to get vocal, you know, they were then, um, basically went to social media and mentioned and kind of in respect of him to say, you know, look, you know, we, this happened.

We lost him. F-I-C-I-V-L doesn't, you know, wanna it even. Um, and this was in the same time as Julian planning the whole basically, um,

Stan: Civil, resign.

Tilen: Yes. The movement, because he, he's been in this sport for, as a team leader [00:27:00] for many years, always pushing, this was always conflict between them and CIVL because he trying to, know, change a few things and it was always kind of denied.

And now it came to the point where. He sees the only way forward is for them to, to resign and to restructure the whole, the whole association. So, commission.

Aninder Singh: I, I think I do tend to agree with the frustration, especially when you see losses of human life right in front of you. And this is not a war-like situation. This is not a particularly hostile environment, uh, that we are, uh, you know, signing, um, up for. We of course know there are, there are like. You know, uh, things that can happen when you go into aviation in general.

Um, however, as you said, there's a lot of, uh, things that can be mitigated with, uh, a certain, uh, SOPs, uh, and, you know, uh, if we pull up the slack somewhere else, but Stan, this is where I want to get your point, uh, you know, your decades worth of experience. [00:28:00] Uh, were you there around the R 11, uh, revolution in 2011?

I think I,

Stan: No. So the year that I was getting into racing, that's when it all kind of hit the fan. Um. I, I got the, the last of it just before the, the accidents in, uh, um, so yeah, so I don't know about the, the open class, uh, and what happened there, but from, from my understanding, because I've, I've flown the R elevens.

The R tens, um, and from my understanding it was pilots pushing the gliders beyond what they were, uh, let's say permitted to do. And that's full speed bar. And full trim is

Aninder Singh: So you mean the user manual guidelines were being inherently exploited?

Stan: Well, [00:29:00] yeah, because, you know, I, I think at that time, if you had full trimmers, open full speed bar, you were getting 80 something kilometers an hour. You know, if the top 10 are pulling away from you because they've got an extra 15, 20 kilometers an hour. You, you're gonna push the trimmers open as well. Um, so I think the fact that the gliders had the ability to do that and the pilots had the ability to take advantage of that is what kind of created that, um, that situation that we had.

And unfortunately, the pilots that died did die. Um, but yeah, so I wasn't in that, uh, era of racing. Um, it wasn't until the CCC came along and I was, I was flying for a decade on BS and Cs and, [00:30:00] and still performing fairly well against the, the DS and the

Aninder Singh: Yeah. No, I, I love the writeup on your, on your website that you have mentioned, uh, so well, but the reason why I asked you this question is that are we looking at a flaw which has been vested in the hierarchical structures of paragliding administration? Uh, or is this more or less a recent development where the centralization of power, uh, the one man multiple role system is like, is this relatively new or is this something that we have been dealing with but behind closed doors for a while now?

Stan: No, it's, it's all been behind and closed doors, you know, um, like I said, uh, earlier, you know, the community is so small and so incestuous that, you know, you, you, you can't get away from it. It's,

Aninder Singh: Such a serious matter.

Stan: you know, [00:31:00] it's, it's your dad in one. Organization is your uncle in the other organization. So it's, uh, you know, the, the pure fact that there are people with multiple roles and not just multiple roles, multiple roles of extreme influence and power. And that's the key. Because if you have the ability to overrule pretty much anything, you can direct and, and steer the organization in whatever way you want.

Aninder Singh: So long story short, you wanna stop incest and bring more interracial, and then flying will be

Stan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. At at least a second cousin. So I think, uh, I think because like if we have a look at the organization, it's, it's reached a point of stagnation. What [00:32:00] has changed within the organization to bring any new ideas, any new direction, any new approach? It's the same people, same roles, and it's, it's just not moving in the direction that it should

Aninder Singh: more social media presence for sure. I'm not gonna take that away from that.

Stan: Yeah. But we, we, we can see the social media stuff on other people's Instagram, you know, um, look, it's, it's good for the sport that there is extra media, um, but it's a double-edged sword. You know, it's good and bad. Where's all the social media about what's happened? You know, you can't castrate the, the information to suit you.

Aninder Singh: Oh,

Stan: Like if, if you are posting the good you, you should be posting the bad as well.

Aninder Singh: that is deep. That is deep stop. Dylan, [00:33:00] when did the official statement come for the accident and when should it have come? Not out of, not out of obligation, but out of humanity.

Stan: It was a, it was a long time, like,

Tilen: Um,

Stan: like it would've been like three or four weeks after.

Tilen: yeah. Um, so I don't know the exact date, but it was definitely after the pilots have spoken up and basically used social media tot to

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: the spotlight on CIVL two to get response. And then they did, and they, the, the way they. showed me that they have learned nothing that we're as

Stan: I.

Tilen: the same, you know, wheel going around doing the same stuff because they just announced some BS solutions of like, you know, we, they're gonna have an award for, uh, for the [00:34:00] guy who makes most on the safety that will be named after Bram and the hang glide of the diet.

You know, and that's kind of, okay, let's sign it off. Fine. You know, let's continue. So, um, this is really the main issue here is they are totally dislocated, you know, living in a parallel universe in a way because they're in this close circle talking in this bubble, just discussing stuff within and any outside, um, interaction is they can, and they, and they did until now easily dismissed it or silenced it.

Like they tried to silence Marcela, like they try to silence other pilots. It's taking their annual licenses and so on. It's, it's just, you know, you don't, you cannot respond like that. You cannot behave like that. This is losing touch

Aninder Singh: So, so, so you're telling me this is more or less like a mafia tactic kind of a thing, you know, where if you either accept what you're given, [00:35:00] or, uh, stop, stop whining and suck it up.

Tilen: So, uh, I think, I hope, uh, Stan will back this up. I've been to, I've been to a lot for the last 12 years on category one events, and on every event there are protests against decisions of organization or CIVL. don't remember a single one that would succeed because every time pilots would complain, and here in, in, in Brazil, we had, I think after, I'm sure it was like to 20 protestors, at least more

Aninder Singh: In, in one comp

Stan: I,

Tilen: In one comp

Stan: I think it was, I think there were just like, on one day there was like 10 or 12 protests on one day, which I've, I've never

Aninder Singh: from the elitist flyers that we have in the sport, they are questioning Wow.

Tilen: know, before, before the, the, the accident, we had one day [00:36:00] where to 30 pilots were calling level three. So for those who don't know what level three is, have like, uh, uh, a system where pilots can communicate of the conditions. Level one, all is fine.

Level two, dangerous at some point, but safe to continue level three, it's not safe to compete. It might be flyable, that means, but not for

Aninder Singh: Mm-hmm.

Tilen: again, it was because of the really strong wind. And we were flying, we had a turn point directly in the lee side of a bigger mountain, like in the, the, the, the flow, the, the wind was coming over it. we were all, and this was. Literally like 30 plus, kilometers of wind and on the ground some they were also reporting over 40 gusts and so on, and 30 pilots or more were saying level three for like half an hour. you know, we didn't even get like an acknowledgement for like 15 minutes. It was like, [00:37:00] is anyone copying this?

Right? Um, a anyways, but, but kind of the, the problem is, um, is this, you know, when you file a complaint or when you try to go against them, it's like you are going against the, um, the decision that they've taken and they themselves are the jury to, you know, to, to judge whether you are right or not, or not.

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: I mean, it's, it's

Aninder Singh: What the fuck?

Tilen: because these, these are like four people mixed with different roles, all super connected. So anytime you would protest them. either the same guy you're protesting or his, his body there.

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: how can you change anything? How can it, you know, there's, literally impossible. And they never did. And that's why over the years, they just got the feeling, or, you know, they kind of know the

Aninder Singh: Invincibility.

Tilen: even though they might not wanna be like evil about it, but they just, [00:38:00] you know, they, they know that it's

Stan: Like it's, it's the, for, for them it's the line of least resistance they've got basically, like if I, uh, I was getting the replies for the protests from friends at the competition, so they were sending me their protest and the email that they got replied back. It was literally copy paste. All they changed was the name of the person that they were sending the email to, and that's it. So it's not even a discussion or an, an analysis of what's being protested. It's just, well, oh, I'll just use this copy paste for everything because why not? I can, and if they protest again, we can always black flag them. Or we can take their license or we can ban them, whatever,

Tilen: Just ignore them.

Stan: or ignore them. Yeah.

Aninder Singh: I think, I think this is perfectly in line with the dictatorship ideology. You [00:39:00] know, that is how you silence voices systematically over a period of time that people forget what it was to speak out and just become another brick in the wall and accept what is given to them.

Stan: Well, I guess you need to have a look at who are the people that have the influence and the power and where they come from.

Aninder Singh: Fair enough. But so far, uh, out of all the discussions, you know, there are a couple of discussions that I've had with Julian and Paul. Uh, I do know that we want to keep the civil because it's niche sport. All of us know each other. We have to bump into, uh, you know, each other every morning at the, at the breakfast table in the hotel.

But somehow the, I I'm gonna go back to your incestuous, uh, analogy. If it is the same tiny group of people that are calling the shots repeatedly over a certain period of time, don't you think that we are dealing with a [00:40:00] very concentrated group and it is totally okay to name them because we are not going against a general ideology.

We are going against individuals who have gained more than what they can handle when it comes to power structures, and then they're just trying to do it to their best of their abilities, which is a very good intent. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not saying that any of the ones who are calling the shots are doing this deliberately, but sometimes, as Julian mentioned in his post, that stepping away is a solution for somebody coming in with a fresh perspective.

So aren't

Stan: Yeah, for sure.

Aninder Singh: a selected set of people rather than keeping it anonymous?

Stan: Look, that's, that's why I think that what Julian said, that okay, we, we basically need to have a resignation. We restructure what we need within the organization. And then we'd bring people in for those roles. [00:41:00] Because if you've got one person that's basically got 3, 4, 5 hats on, across not just one organization, but two organizations, like how, how are they gonna cope?

You know, so they're, they're just not making the changes that are required because,

Aninder Singh: too much workload.

Stan: who, well, well, who knows What reason? Like, only those people will know the reason, whether it's too much workflow. Uh, fuck. Like, even, even empathy, like some of the calls that I've seen at takeoff, like there's zero empathy given to a pilot.

You know, back wind at takeoff, there's a, a small pilot with 20 liters of ballast. Well, if they can't take off, it's their problem.

Aninder Singh: Hmm.

Stan: Well, yeah, but is it a normal situation to be taking off with [00:42:00] a back wind on, a take off with a, with a sheer

Aninder Singh: On a triple C, god dammit, like.

Stan: you know, with, with ballast, you know, so just the lack of that human element, I think.

Um, I think for some people they've distanced the themselves so far away from the pilots and that human element that they're just not making decisions for people.

Tilen: Yeah.

Stan: like, well, the rule book says this. End of story. Yeah, you wanna protest, you can protest, pay your 50 euro. Uh, but at the end of the day, I don't really care, you know?

So.

Tilen: Yeah. And the, the, the problem is that also because you have concentrated kind of power and no accountability, um, is that they can either, you know, lean on the rule book and go word by word, or they [00:43:00] can totally ignore the rules they have themselves written, and this has happened this year, you know, at the super final and then also here. Um, so it's just, you know, they're not accountable. They're not, they're not consistent even with the rules. And that is why I think it's really important. And I, I'm, I'm glad to see this kind of for, for the first time. There's also a push, it's, you know, this sea resign is not against, and I think this is important.

It's not against individuals, right? Guys like Go Dei, who is the president of P Ws a and vice president in CIVL and other guys. It's not against them personally. It's against basically anyone, anybody from this, different organizations having basically multiple roles and kind of this, you know, um, power. Um, and it's, it's basically how can we define the, uh, the, the rules in a [00:44:00] way that this can be prevented. And also in a way that things like Stan was mentioning, right, back, wind and so on, to leave it to anyone's just interpretation of like, what good pilot should do. Like we need, needs to be work done on basically rules and standards of the organizing an event. know, when like basically with different mindset as we do now, we have, there are a lot of rules, but there's. Not, they're not written in a way to, um, to ensure safe and high standard competitions. Um, and again, all they were able to do in the last 10 years is just like up with some five minutes solutions for problems that absolutely not critical, like conical and the speed section, double leading points, some ideas of what cloud flying is, but not really, you know, and at the same time we [00:45:00] have developments in our sport that made it more dangerous, right?

With like the hardnesses and, and so on. And it's.

Aninder Singh: So, so if I have to kind of sum up our past five, 10 minutes of views, censorship is the right word. I'm not gonna shy away from that. You know, it, it, it seems like censoring has been going on, uh, or sweeping it under the carpet. But what kind of makes me sad and kind of angry about this whole reality that you told me is that the lack of empathy. Where it is being swept, uh, you know, um, uh, away from, uh, the decision making, core decision making, um, process. And more than that, the, the lack of inter encouragement of interaction, because that is the, that is the first step when we want to develop in the right direction that we encourage dialogue. [00:46:00] So, correct me if I'm wrong, guys, is this a little bit of a ego trip and ignorance being combined in the behavioral attitude of, uh, authorities, which has caused a cascade of events to lead to this catastrophe that we are staring at?

Stan: Possibly, but I, I don't like, personally I don't, I don't know if it's ego. I think, um, it's something different. It's, it's not ego. I can't put my finger on it. Um, I

Aninder Singh: reason why I said that word is, is that I'm the boss. I call the shots. This is the rule I you protest. I decide, uh, paperwork is done. Uh, we all go

Stan: Yeah, I think, I think it's something, even more than ego, ego is just too easy to, to say that it's somebody's ego. It's, it's something much, much deeper than that. Um, and [00:47:00] I think that's possibly why it's such a big problem, because if it was just somebody's ego, you'd, you'd have a workaround. But this is something deeper.

This is, this is ego mixed with mindset, mixed with, I don't know what Yeah, like yeah, money, definitely.

Aninder Singh: It, it has to play

Stan: money for sure.

Aninder Singh: power.

Stan: Yeah. No, like,

Aninder Singh: in hand that it's, it's, it's a cohesive development of a human when all

Stan: yeah, for, for sure. Money's, money's definitely a factor. Um. You know, I've, I've never delved into the intricacies of, of where the money goes, but you know, the, the amounts that sometimes you hear about, especially for a world's event, like [00:48:00] I'm pretty sure you could, you could hire a private ambulance service with rescue teams for takeoff below the hill, uh, and 20 landings in between the takeoff and the official landing.

Um, so I think we need to find out where that money's going because it's not into the quality of, of healthcare for the, for the pilots or the rescue teams. Like if we have a look at Costello two years earlier, uh, there was a, another fatality there. It took like, I think it was like 16 hours or 18 hours, uh, to basically get the body off the hill and the next day we were flying over the body while it was still on

Aninder Singh: Oh my God. No.

Tilen: Oh.

Stan: you know? So,

Aninder Singh: way man.

Stan: and [00:49:00] you know, there, there's been calls where, like I mentioned this during the, like, after the task because we, we didn't know what had happened. Uh, you know, we were all flying, um, and you know, there was a pilot that, uh, that crashed and we had a task where we were basically waiting for the start above the pilot.

Then we'd fly across the valley to the north, uh, in Costello, and then we'd come directly back over where the body was and. We didn't know as pilots that there was a helicopter on the way. Uh, and you know, when I mentioned it in the afternoon, I'm like, look, we've got a hundred and thirty five, a hundred and forty pilots circling over a body.

You've got a helicopter incoming. Uh, we're flying away from this place at [00:50:00] altitude and then we're all gonna be coming back super low scratching. So we've got a helicopter on the way. We've got pilots coming back super low. Uh, we've got potential for another accident because it's gonna be 140 pilots again in that same spot.

Where's the safety in that? Oh, the reply that I got is, well, uh, we timed it that the helicopter was going to get there about the right time. So it's like, for me, that was a given that that task should have been stopped. All the pilots fly away and then the rescue can can go on, and then when the rescue did come, they couldn't even get to the body from the helicopter because they didn't have a long enough line.

Aninder Singh: I am fucking angry man, and this, I, I hate being in this vibe as a host of a show, which is speaking to an audience, but fuck my life. [00:51:00] Have we desensitized ourselves to something as gory and grave as death, that there is a human pilot lying lifelessly. For more than 12 hours, and we are going out and looking for the core and wanting to push full bar and still chase glory, which nobody gives a single flying fuck about.

Aninder Singh: Are you kidding me? Is that the reality that we all look forward to? That's a shame of a century. My man. What the fuck?

Stan: Like at the end of, at the end of the day, everyone's taken a holiday, everyone's there to race. You know, when, whenever we've got a, a big accident, oh yeah. We, we have a day trip to somewhere like in Turkey. They had a day trip to Kacha. You know, as for, for ref, I don't know, for reflection that a pilot has died.

You know, you go [00:52:00] for a day trip. So, I don't know. For, for me, it's become very distasteful in how we as pilots are treated and. What happens after there is an accident?

Tilen: Yeah, and I think you know, what's important to highlight is maybe this is not the standard. You know, I think in normal venues, you know, when helicopter is on the way, stuff are stopped and so on, but. That's not any excuse. Um, it's still like the minimum of what I, the stand, the minimum standard of what we are doing should be at that level that, you know, safety comes really, uh, is essential.

And what I, [00:53:00] I see what, how I interpret this kind of stuff or why this happens every, you know, few years or something. What's kind of is that there's a lot of close calls that are not discussed, that are not processed, that are not thought about. You know, when like there's a close call, everybody in five minutes forgets it and it's fine.

And then the, like from the organizational point of view and all those, know, they tend to make the, the, the same, the same mistakes over and over again. And even though there is a small chance of like this kind of stuff happening eventually does happen because there's no. There's no, you know, we just kind of collectively ignore and on because hard, it's hard to think about, it's hard to make some difficult choices, you know? Um, it's easier to just pretend and just to deal with, uh, other [00:54:00] stuff, you know, some technical whatever BS rules that for fairness that nobody gives them, you know? And, and you see, you see kind of the, you see the kind of the disconnect between kind of what's at the heart of the pro, kind of the, the issue and what they're trying, or everybody's now even the communities thinking and like, my take on, I mean, maybe this is steering a bit off course, but like, you know, with the Equalizers, it's, it's. They're saying they're

Stan: It is

Tilen: like, um, safety or safety wise, or like that lighter pilots, you know, shouldn't take so much ballast and so on. So let's put equalizers on everyone.

Stan: and.

Tilen: And Exactly. And, and then I ask, I asked basically the FII there or the CIL, like, like, sure. So you're telling me that all the, the small pilots here that need to carry 40 kilo, they have 40 ki they have one-to-one ratio almost, because they can barely feed to the extra [00:55:00] small. So, uh, you're saying me that equalizers are solving their balance problem,

Stan: And, and for, and for, with, with the equalizers, like I'm, I'm a big boy. Yeah. I, I, I just fit on an extra large, like I've got a liter of drinking water, that's my ballast, so where's my equalizer for not being able to turn as tight as a smaller glider in a thermal, you know? So it's like, it's, it's how, where do you draw the line on what you are going to equalize and what you're not gonna equalize?

Uh,

Tilen: and again, kind of the, the real problem is, you know, have competitors with like extreme ballasts, you know, with really a lot where it really makes a huge difference when you crash.

Stan: yeah.

Tilen: we are not saying if Stan has one liter, 'cause that's technically ballast,

Stan: But this, this,

Tilen: you know, he can carry that one liter.

Stan: yeah.

Tilen: have a, a person with 50 kilos and 30 30 kilos of gear, the real [00:56:00] problem. And the equalizers don't, don't change that.

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: you know, there's a, you see kind of the disconnect between kind of the solution that's there, which has impact on the, on the critical parts. Um, okay. Sorry a bit for the off topic, but it's just

Stan: No, but it's, I I think it's, I think it's, it's part of it as well because even when we have a look at like how much money in, uh, I think PWC is being spent on, on adapting the scoring system. Like if, if we devoted that even half the money for better medical. At takeoff or at landing, like that's, that's a benefit that I can justify spending that money on.

Whether I'm getting scored at 0.03 more at the end of a task. I don't care. [00:57:00] Like if everyone's on the same scoring, it's all fair anyway.

Aninder Singh: Talking about money, I wanna clarify this because a lot of people say nobody is in our sport to make money. Um, you know, everybody's in it for passion, but for fuck's sake, nobody's doing it for free as well, right? Don't, don't, don't have that precedent. And just to give our listeners a perspective, and I'm sorry if I'm a bit triggered right now, but this is a brand new reality of racing that I never knew existed because I have idolized and fantasized about pushing full bar in the lead thermal.

And since the day I picked up my wing and I never knew that there were, uh, we have desensitized the field up to a point where we are missing the whole point of that we fly for the joy of it, not for the bragging, um, over, like, past whatever. Right. Anyways, everybody gets what I'm saying. So the, the question about money, 350 euros, that's the entry fee, [00:58:00] right?

Usually ballpark. Bring in, bring in hundred and 30 s. That's a minimum. That's close to 45,000 euros.

Stan: like I've, I've worked closely with organizers of competitions, so I've, I know that there's things where the money goes very quickly because, for example, some sites. Five grand to run a comp, like you have to pay the fee. So it's, I'm not going to, I'm not going to kind of deny that there are the costs that you'll never find out about, you know, you might have to put a five grand to have an ambulance at takeoff and at landing another five grand for something else.

So the money does go fairly quickly. Uh, but is it [00:59:00] going in the right direction? That's, that's the question that we need to be asking. Where are our membership fees going? Where are our entry fees going? Like, what am I getting? Because even if I win an event. Yeah. Okay. I get my WPRS points. I get my, uh, in Turkey. It was actually a pretty good, uh, medal, so I, I won't deny it. And the trophies were pretty, pretty nice and made out of glass, so it wasn't just five euros worth of trophies, but normally it's a five euro trophy.

So, you know, we, we need to have a look at are we getting something that's worth our money? Because if, if we're paying that 350 euro, or if you go to the worlds, it's, it's 500 plus, um, you know, am I getting the level of [01:00:00] safety, the level of medical care, the level of rescue services that I'm paying for? And most of the time the answer's no.

Like the, the only competition where. I went to, that was a big competition. It was the world's two years ago in France, and that was pretty much the only time I've ever felt that if I crash within 15 minutes, I've got a helicopter above me pretty much guaranteed, and I'll, I'll get taken care of. That's the only time everything else, it's like, okay, we go to Turkey.

I can guarantee they're not paying 5, 6, 10 grand for ambulances in Turkey. It's gonna be 20%. Yeah, so why are we not getting the quality that we should require as a [01:01:00] minimum?

Tilen: And it's funny 'cause the business model how I see it, or basically other, the other question why people go to competitions, you know? Okay. Part of it is kind of competitive, like going there to win WS points and so on. out of 130, I think majority or why, like if down you go to competition is have a, you go for a week on a holiday somewhere to a new place. Everything's organized. So you pay the ENT entry fee, you have all the, the, the, the kind of transport, you know, somebody's taking care of you, somebody's looking at the weather. Somebody like if you crash, at least that's what we think. Somebody will take care of you. So you have this kind of, you know, somebody's watching over you for that week that you're flying there. So for most people, the competition. Okay. And the fourth part is really kind of the community. You go there 'cause you see France,

Stan: And there's, and, and there's a fifth, like some people purely go to [01:02:00] competitions to get away from their wives.

Tilen: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. But a way, in a way, we go for competitions to go on an flying trip, let's

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: Right? Um, and, and yeah, it's, guess at the moment, you, you, you, your money is better spent if you go to a touring or some guiding, um, trips where you have really a guy that's looking, not even, not just to, I mean, really taking care of you basically, even visually, right?

So react, so that's kind of, part of the problem also because the organizers know this their business model is a hundred something people times entry fee. That's my budget. I don't ask for any. Basically budget out, out, out elsewhere. 'cause I don't really need to, 'cause that's enough to, [01:03:00] to get the vans, to get the fees and to have something left over. And whether you, whether you, um, whether you provide more to the pilots or less, basically at the moment, nobody cares, right? I mean, you know, it's not really hot setting spots. If you say, okay, helicopter is in 15 minutes, or helicopter needs 45 minutes, probably the other one will still be out at the moment. So I guess part of the blame, it's also on, on us, on pilots that, uh, we are just not basically, um, facts. Um, can say for myself, um, things have changed in Brazil, um, even the day after. I had a very different approach to risk management. Like, you know, during the world championships, after [01:04:00] bras accident, I have taken multiple decisions. I said kind of, I, I saw where it was going, where we are flying into, into the and I said, okay, you know, I tap out, I'm gonna land here safely. I don't care about the result anymore. So.

Aninder Singh: Guys, this is such interesting, sad, curious, like I'm, I'm going through all sorts of emotions, but I don't want this episode to turn into a rant of some sorts, especially for the sake of our listeners who are tuning in for some sorts of solutions. Um, and, and I hope to look forward to pushing full bar, um, and, and chasing the joy that comes with it.

So let's switch to the way forward. Uh, Stan, uh, you, and you know, I think to this goes for you as well. You guys have been in the game for, for a fair bit. What is the way forward here that makes us stick to the fact that never again is never again.

Stan: Uh, I think we need to have a spring cleaning. We need to clean house. We need to then agree among the pilots or with the organizations what rules, regulations, roles are required moving forward. Um, and there has to be an element of pilot input into the decisions and the, the direction that we're, we're moving into.

Because at the moment, you know, with, uh, your civil delegate, you can, you can give him whatever ideas you want, but unless he agrees with them and puts them forward, they never get heard. So I. You know, even if they introduce a voting system, every civil membership member or fine member gets an email to a, a poll, you know, what do you think [01:06:00] on this subject?

And we do it in that way rather than how it is at the moment. Because at the moment it's, to put it bluntly, it's almost a dictatorship,

Aninder Singh: I said, just like mafia vibes all along. If you speak against me, I'm gonna silence you if you go on.

Stan: yeah. Like for, for me, the way that pilots are silenced and it, it's, yeah, to put it politely, it's, it's just distasteful. Uh, I won't use other

Aninder Singh: enough, fair enough. Thank you for the censorship self censorship.

Stan: but, you know, I, I don't think how it is at the moment has a future. Uh, I'm more than happy, like I mentioned, uh, earlier, I'm more than happy to boycott. I don't pay my fi license, I don't pay my PWC membership until things change for the better. [01:07:00] Uh, because at the end of the day, I've got a family, I want to go back to them, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna risk flying in questionable conditions.

And in, let's be honest, in Brazil, it wasn't questionable. They knew it was coming.

Aninder Singh: outrageous.

Stan: And the fact that, you know, there, there's been comments that I've heard that, you know, well, a hundred other pilots landed there. And it's like, well, yeah, a hundred pilots survived landing there, but like, what was their enjoyment level?

You know, trying to land there, uh, and flying those conditions, like even from the videos we have a look at, there's collapse collapses above landing. There's pilots flying backwards, you know, coming, trying to come into land. So, you know, [01:08:00] for anyone that kind of says, well, a hundred other pilots managed to land there.

Yeah, sure. A thousand planes land at a, at an airport. There's, there's still a chance that one doesn't, you know, how can we limit the percentage or the, um, uh, or the frequency of conditions where, where that's even possible because it was completely avoidable. Like we have to put it bluntly. The accident in Brazil was completely avoidable.

And like till said, it started months earlier with the decision to to change venue.

Aninder Singh: More, more than that. I'm not gonna, like, I, I'll come back to you Tilian. Uh, but more than that, the, the hit back. Raising a voice is what concerns me. It's like, okay, I can make a mistake because I'm a human, so I'm not [01:09:00] gonna take away the fact that organizers are humans as well, and we gotta cut them some slack.

But when it comes to the point that, Hey, I am having an opinion that you are on the wrong track and you tell me to shut the fuck up, that is the easiest, blunt way to put it, because somebody is not home because of some decisions that you made. So censoring that part is what is making me angry, but tilian, yeah.

Go on. You were saying something before I rant again about this.

Tilen: No, um, no, I just, um, actually forgot what I was, uh, trying to add to Stan's comment. It's fine. It's fine. But basically, you know, your, your, uh, point was what, what do we need? To go forward or how we would like to proceed forward. And, um, you know, I've, I've talked, I mentioned basically that I feel completely disconnected to kind of CIVL and what they're [01:10:00] doing, even though I'm really involved into paragliding and competing and have been for many years.

But I feel utterly hopeless at them, basically providing any solutions that I would see a better future. the way forward, what I really wish for is basically, um, uh, organization or commission that takes pilot input, that recognizes difficult, hard question, heart problems, and they have a vision, you know, it things won't be solvable within like a single whatever, the legislation or whatever.

Maybe, you know, even working on a pilot culture is something it'll take years. But you need, in order to achieve it, you need a vision, you need a plan, how to do it. None of these strengths is happening. They are ignorant to, to everything. And when you confront them, the only thing they are concerned about is basically their image and [01:11:00] basically admitting they were wrong, kind of like, and that's why they attack people. uh, the, the story I already shared, it's like the, Macedonia in 2019, we had all these disputes for gambit and so on, right? Which I won't go into too much detail, but they, they

Aninder Singh: Spec Spec, just just for the, um, perspective of listeners who don't know what tele is saying. Specter and gambit were two brand new toys on the market, which promised field dominance. And there were some pilots who put their trust in them, but they were denied racing certaining, uh, pertaining to some technical rules that were, uh, activated or engaged, uh, from the ones who were calling the shots.

Yeah, go on.

Tilen: exactly. And the way they were with like the team leader voting about the technical part is just totally illogical. But nevertheless, after that, the, the they, I was one of the pilots, you know, registering there with the, [01:12:00] with the gabit and then, then I was denied. Luckily I had an Enzo with me so I could

Stan: But, but you also have to mention this was the day before the actual competition was meant to start. It's not months before that you had time to prepare. It's you show up to a competition and they go, me, you can't fly your glider.

Tilen: yeah, not even them. They, they kind of had a vote

Stan: Yeah.

Tilen: on a technical, like either you, you know, comply with or not, and then they were just used kind of the team leader votes Bizarre. Totally. But, um, I had a chance basically to go on one-on-one off the record, of course, with them. And they kind of, at that time the president was Stephen Mabo from France.

And they, he asked me like, what, okay, like, what do you wanna see kind of in future, or how would you want us to, you know, direction so on. I was saying like, okay, first of all, I want like more transparency. I want [01:13:00] um, um, more accountability and more predictability because this was part of the, you know, this was the quality issue. I went there, everything was green. And then the day before, they said, no, you need, you cannot compete. Even though it went like through multiple rounds of this is legal or not. Um, so I said that, okay, goodbye. The next plenary what? Uh, I went on social media to ran about their decision. Of course.

'cause I was pissed off, who wouldn't? And, uh, the outcome of that was that an plenary. They voted that if you rent against them on social media, you can get, you can, you can be disqualified for unsupportive behavior. That's the only thing. It changed from the, the whole mess. it's, it's, it shows kind of where the focus lies. It was not, it was never about solving a problem or improving. It was just how can we prevent from people giving this hard time? And [01:14:00] this is still the same today.

Stan: And we've, we've seen it with Marcella, like, you, you, you speak up and you get absolutely destroyed.

Aninder Singh: Stan, can you quickly for, for those, uh, audiences, listeners who are, uh, curious, uh, elaborate on Marcella and also while um, this topic is going on, I would encourage, um, the, uh, the listeners and viewers to drop in a comment about your perspective, uh, on censoring personal opinions on personal social media handles.

Because I think the way digital work works is that we all have our own platform, as long as it is not hate speech targeted at a certain sector. Or a person. if it is expressed in a civil manner, I don't see any reason for reprimand because if it is, [01:15:00] then that is exact definition of dictatorship where it's like you say something against the organization and I will make sure you pay the price for it.

And I do understand that I'm diluting my position as a podcast host or as somebody who will look forward to collaborating with well-known names. And this is my message to those people who want to stand on the side of truth, that I do promise that no matter how hard it be, uh, no matter what monetary losses it be, I will make sure that Para Atlas brings to you undistorted unfiltered truth at all times.

And I will stand by it. But yeah, Stan, back to you.

Stan: Yeah, so the situation was that, uh, I, I don't know the exact details of why there was a discussion about changing location because the worlds was meant to be in, in Andras, which is a superior place to, to fly, especially in that [01:16:00] time of year. Uh, not to mention with even the healthcare, because the organizer there was hiring a private.

Uh, ambulance service that was going to, to be working at the worlds. Um, but Marcella pointed to all these things, uh, in a, in an email that she sent to, uh, civil, uh, stating that that time of year in Costello will be carnage. It's windy, it's not the right season, it's all the bad factors. Uh, and basically the, the fallback of this was the, well, uh, if you've got a problem and you continue having a problem, then you're basically gonna get banned.

Um, and then from memory, one of the other Brazilian pilots basically boycotted the worlds. He had a [01:17:00] spot, he was qualified. He, he was all paid up, and he boycotted just because it's not the direction that the sport should be going in.

Aninder Singh: Wise words, Stan, wise words. Um, guys, we are clo I, I would like to close this without, you know, having this topic go super long because I wanna keep it to the point, what responsibility do the audience members listening to us carry, and how can they do their own bit in ensuring that all of us are a part of the system that is fair, just civil, and most importantly, safe.

Stan: Like, speak up, make, make your wants heard. You know, do you just want to go on a holiday or do you wanna go on a safe flying trip? Okay. There might be a day or two that you don't fly, but you'll make it home. Um, [01:18:00] you know, talk to your civil delegate and if you don't like the direction that something's going in.

Take some kind of action because you still paying your civil fees, you still going to a competition. You're just feeding the system that you're not agreeing with.

Aninder Singh: Wow. Um, you know, usually guys I have this, um, for you say a tradition, and that was more or less for site guides or when I have a guest who speaks about their one memorable flight from their life, I think, um, the. Sub subscribers who have been with me since the beginning of the journey back in 2023. They will, they can recall a lot of amazing flights being told, but I wanna tweak that part over here and come back to the point of censorship and this one goes out to you.

Tilan, before I close, I do recall faintly that there [01:19:00] was a time when pilots were reprimanded for liking something on social media, for heaven's sake. What the actual happened

Tilen: Yeah. So, uh, so you know the story before Macedonia and then the, the, the GA beat and the plenary and the, you know, unsupportive behavior

Aninder Singh: is, is it is, is it same people in power during, throughout this whole timeline on more or less kind of

Tilen: or more or less.

Aninder Singh: Wow.

Tilen: Yeah. Um, but, but yeah, the next, the next year, the worlds were, were supposed to be in France.

Stan: Hmm.

Tilen: They were not because of COVID, because of lockdown. So they went to, they went to Argentina, which was, by the way, again, a last minute cha uh, change. Okay. It was COVID and everything, but you know, again, it's, I, and I have to say like, the [01:20:00] way, what bothers me here, I don't wanna, I wanna put it out, is. The way, uh, these world championships are, uh, selected is not random. You know, they need to, the organizers need to make basically a, a project or a proposal. They need to be voted on. They need to make a test event. You know, there are a lot of like processes that they go through in order to comply that they are capable of making. And the CIVL still at that time, okay, it was Corona, but they were just like, let's go to Argentina because there's no restrictions. Which at, at that time I didn't go because I felt this is dumb this time, know, so they, they can, they will do everything possible in order not to cancel one, which it's not the end of the world Um, so it was in Georgina, uh, it was, um, yeah, some stupid stuff about, uh, I think the French team bombed [01:21:00] out and then they were level three and. There, there was a meme about like how they are concerned 'cause the, the submarine just came out and how they were that it'll not sell. So they need to like can, if they don't win with submarine, they will, they need to cancel, whatever, doesn't matter. Um, and then pilots like that meme on the, uh,

Aninder Singh: No. Basically somebody clicked like or double tab on history. Yeah. Okay.

Tilen: yeah, yeah. Double tap. And then, I don't know for others, but I know a friend of mine, uh, he got an official warning from the FIE jury or Stewart, I think Stewart at that time for unsupportive behavior because he liked a meme on a pilot's chat for a joke.

Aninder Singh: You know, the, i I, I love this that you pointed it out with full honesty and honest. This, this is a message which goes to organizers and I'll, I'll try and be to the point here, guys. Fine. You have a rule which says, do not like a meme on social [01:22:00] media because it is unsupported behavior. All I would say is, please stand in front of a mirror and look what you have done. Would you classify that as unsupported behavior? And if yes, then look harder and see if it is actually time to go, and if it is actually time for a change because unspotted behavior. Can be very conveniently defined depending upon which side of the jury you are.

Tilen: Yep.

Stan: One thing I'd like to touch on, uh, I just noticed the post, I think, uh, last night or this morning from fight about the, the safety stand down. Which isn't really a, a big stand down because I don't think there's any real cat one events during winter, is that, um,

Tilen: Pan-American in March,

Stan: but from, from the wording, it's [01:23:00] like a stand down until the Pan-American.

Tilen: yeah,

Stan: So, so what are they actually standing down from? Um, so for me, I think even, even just that approach that, okay, well we're posting that we're standing down just to, you know, improve our optics. Uh, we're not actually standing down from anything. What's actually going to change until the Pan-American?

Shouldn't they stand down from all events until they've implemented the changes?

Aninder Singh: Fuck yeah. Easy choice. That's like what triple seven was messing up in the, in the commercial world. They grounded the whole freaking fleet. You know, this is a very normal behavior in aviation and if commercial, uh, guys can go out and chase it in, in a more safer manner, [01:24:00] then we should at least have the intent to learn rather than the intent to cover up.

That's what I'm saying.

Stan: no, no,

Tilen: yeah. know, be transparent. Um, they're, um, you know, also the guys at the CL are human. Um, I truly believe the kind of intentions they have are for the best, you know, in their own vision and so on. But come on, be transparent.

Stan: no.

Tilen: responsibility when you need it. know, just We, we talk about like accident and safety, and we all know here, I mean, I, I know it's cliche to say it is a dangerous sport. Accidents unfortunately will happen. What I would like to see in an accident like it was now, that aftermath was, was like, okay, accident happened. [01:25:00] Everything was done as good as it was possible at that time, you know, all basically we have the sa, we had all the safety nets or most of the safety nets in place.

In order for that to not happen, it still happened. You know, let's analyze what we can do more. And the pilots, we kind of have that feeling of like, okay, actually, yeah, the guy crashed, um, had serious, uh, consequences or died, but like the, there was, there was not like things that went horribly wrong before or after. In terms of like procedures and so on, that lead to, to that right, that we can, that we can say kind of, that we can be, I don't know how to say this, not satisfied, view it in that point. Like, you know, the safety nets were there, it still happened because there is a small chance it can still happen. Whereas now where we are like, you [01:26:00] know, we were warned, we were pointing out, we were vocal about it, we were trying to like, and still nothing happened. And then the accident happened without outcome. It did. And still after you know, nothing. And now finally, I mean, we are kind of in a discussion to change things, from my point of view, uh, you know, it's still, it's still deja vu basically from the CIVL.

Stan: Look, it's, it's business as usual,

Tilen: yeah.

Stan: like any, any competition. The, there's been an accident. It's, uh, the, the pilot's fault. Next task, we, we go flying, you know, there's no accountability, there's no analysis of what went wrong, what could have been done better. Um, and like Tillen was just mentioning like if you had the correct framework and all the processes and something [01:27:00] failed, I understand.

But now at the worlds, they didn't have the framework, they didn't have the correct processes. So when something did go wrong, they there, there has to be. Some level of accountability and at the moment it's, well, we'll shrug it off and we keep going. So yeah, that's one thing that we need to change.

Aninder Singh: Chris, you know, this has been insightful. 90 minutes for me so far, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people watching and listening to this can relate to it as well. And I, I kind of wanna leave it at that without digging further deep into, um, and washing the dirty in public because, uh, I think we have done that enough, um, to bring out the facts.

And I would leave the. I would rather invite, uh, the audiences to [01:28:00] present their opinion and I'm, I'm not saying this to gain traction or views or something, you know, I've, I've been doing this show even when there were like 20 people listening to me two years ago. So I, I do this because I love this. So I'm not inviting you to start commenting because I want more.

It would be amazing if we can have this reached out to more people, but I want to know the opinion of general public out there when all of this is being happening. And I'm pretty sure we have not distorted the facts or we have not twisted because we are not sponsored by anyone yet. I hope that changes.

Stan: But you do know, we just, we just finished a conversation about people being, uh, being singled out for liking posts about the comments.

Aninder Singh: Well, fair enough. There's a possibility to do anonymous commenting as well, or make a fricking new, you know, whatever, any, everybody [01:29:00] gets the point, but yeah, I,

Stan: for sure.

Aninder Singh: let's, let's all do our own bit to make sure that every time we take to the sky is, is not just safe for us, but also safe for the ones waiting behind. I think I, I would like to leave it at that.

Stan: Yep.

Tilen: Great.

Aninder Singh: Thank you, gents. It's been an absolute honor. Can't wait for,

Stan: Very welcome. Welcome.

Tilen: I hope, uh, next time we get to talk about more positive things. I feel this episode has been ly so kind of hard and honest. Um. I would just like to remind people that paragliding is still a beautiful sport. That's why we do it, and I look forward to discussions about that at some

Aninder Singh: Yeah, Stan, if we go from incest to interracial, we'll definitely have better stories, I promise.

Stan: Absolutely. [01:30:00] We'll, we'll have prettier babies.

Aninder Singh: Better genes, better decision making skills. Alright.

Tilen: Thanks. Bye-bye.