The Russell Ogden Interview: Decoding Paragliding Mastery Protocols: Progression, Fear & Competition

Hello and welcome back to Paragliding Atlas Podcast. I'm your host, Aninder Singh, and joining us today is the man who needs no introduction. I'm talking about none other than Russell Ogden. Russ, how do I begin? This is beyond words. Such a huge honour and something that I'd looked forward to ever since I started flying. Thank you so much for coming. Well, thank you so long to be here and looking forward to it, Russ. I've been in the sport for like almost 7-8 years now and you know, one thing that I've always kind of sought after is information. And as I do, I of course, you know, look it up on the public domain, on the Internet and

whatever search engines provide us. I'm very curious, are you the most interviewed person in paragliding? I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea. I have been on YouTube and podcast quite a few times. So much of what I've said is has been said many times before and heard many times before. And a lot of my friends actually say, oh God, not him again. Because yeah, it's all been said and heard before. But it's, it's good to be here with you. It's been a while actually since I've done. You know, as I was researching for the show, I was trying to, uh, I mean, of course I've binged on every single piece of

information that you've put out there, but I was looking up and these days search engines are switching to AI and everything is like you, you talk to the bots and they respond. And I was like, the amount of information that Russ has put out through various mediums, It's like there can be a single section like Russ Ogden Paragliding Encyclopaedia itself with the with this knowledge that kind of has been generated over the past years or so. Yeah. Well, I think it's really important that we, you know, knowledge is key in this sport. And I think it's really important that there's a there's a free spread of information to

to make the sport as so that we all have as much information as possible. It's so, so important. And especially when we're at the sharp end sort of working as and it's, I'm happy and glad to be able to share it. And I, I always classify myself as second generation pilot. By the time I started flying, there was an established training regime in the UK. The BHPA had had a complete training schedule. And so I was very much part of the second generation and I and when I started, I looked up to the first generation pilots, the guys that were flying the 9 cells and slowly evolving to more higher performance wings.

But by the time I first started flying, we already had high performing paragliders that look like paragliders we fly today rather than old parachutes. So I think I got into the sport at just the right time. The point that I was trying to get to was that I do remember you, you speaking in one of your shows that you knew from day one that this was for you. What I'm wondering is that did you kind of envision a life of where you are at now that you'll be spearheading, let's say the R&D and one of the foremost players in the industry impacting so many other paragliding pilots lives by that

and of course, you know, sharing the joy with the community and everybody else around you? No, I didn't aspire to do that and I'm not sure if I even do that right now. But I was teaching paragliding for 10 years and I really enjoyed teaching paragliding and I thought that's probably what I would remain doing. But now I work, you know, as, as a test pilot for ozone. Just a very small role, a small part in a in a big machine that is ozone and I, I play but a small role in that. One thing that I've kind of seen from you every time like you have interacted with someone is

that you, you come across as a very humble person. Is there something that you have kind of done right, which you have noticed, of course, besides your personality and, you know, just being humble in itself that is kind of made you that way, But still, is there something that helped you stay like that and kind of come across as an approachable and easy to talk to? No, I just, I, I guess I think humility is a British value and also I've never seen it as I've never seen myself as anything special in the world's of, of pilots. Everything I've achieved and, and acquired is by hard work and practice and a lot of steady

progression. I, I, I was, you know, it took, it took years to, to kind of get to any reasonable level for me. I wasn't, I wasn't necessarily the fastest learner or the OR, or progressed so fast. But back then there wasn't the information. It was really difficult to, you know, progress fast because everything we were doing was, we were learning as we went. You know, we didn't have him. Nowadays you see the kids come along 1617 and they're doing infinite tumbles and all of these things and, and they've only been flying a few years. And when I look back at how it was in the 90s, I mean, there was no charge.

We were, we were doing wing overs, you know, and even then they were radical and, and the wings we had, the equipment we had wasn't quite as up to the standards that they have now. But I think, I think knowledge is key there. And nowadays you can, you can get, there's so much sources of information and there's so many good instructors that can guide pilots through. I mean, we had good instructors back in the 90s that knew their stuff, but it was the blind leading the blind because the, the, the, the local sky gods had 100 hours, you know, and 100 hours, it's like, my God,

they're so experienced. Whereas nowadays 100 hours doesn't really mean a great deal. So yeah, we've progressed a long way. Yeah, I mean hard work does kind of shape your personality up to a point as well. But like the the reason why I asked that question is I want to know a little bit of ideology of gratitude because gratitude can mitigate a lot of lot of, I wouldn't say negative feelings, but like feelings which you don't want to have at a certain stage. And I think maybe listeners can resonate to this, that quite a few times when you land from a flight which hasn't gone the way

you wanted it to be, you are not really in the right mindset. Regardless of the the fact that you are one of the lucky few who get to fly a machine called Paraglider in the world out of everyone else, you know that's here on the planet. And this can be applied in cross country context or even especially in competition if you bomb out. Or you know, when you compare yourself as humans to others and comparison is the root of all evil, but somehow we all end up doing it. So how do you navigate the formal or feelings which come with those kind of after effects? I think that's the the hardest

part to deal with really is disappointment in paradigm competitions. But I think it's the same in any sport, if any, any sport that you do professionally. I think, you know, learning to lose, learning to learning to not achieve what you expect and being able to deal with that is a really important process because that's how you learn and how you grow. And paragliding is a whole world of paragliding competitions. Is, is is mostly disappointment. And if you don't deal with that disappointment very well, then you you don't last very long as a competition pilot. And from when I first started flying, I knew I was in it for

the long run. So I was not really, I wasn't aiming to for a quick fix. I I wanted to be able to do this for my adult life and, and, and get enjoyment from it. And, and I'm learning to deal with your defeats is just crucial, just crucial to paragliding. I grew up playing quite a bit of golf and I still play golf and that's very much a a similar sport. I love golf, but I, I know I've, but I've never walked away from a golf course thinking that was a brilliant. I've always walked away thinking that was a bit disappointing because I missed this and I missed that and and so on.

So golf was a good level for me and a good a good sport to kind of give you the right mindset to, to to compete with. I I read somewhere that you have to let emotions come as well, and that is a part of being human. And I'd like to take the example of, let's say Roger Federer is one of the all time greats in tennis and Maxim Pino is on, like you can say on a similar level, the way he chases excellence in our sport. Both of them, the reason why I'm comparing them right now is that Roger Federer said that there was a stage in life when he was quite used to throwing away the

rackets and the tantrums on a coat until one day he just decided that enough is enough and he has to change his personality because he's throwing away his matches. I remember speaking to Maxime because he has been on the show as well earlier. And I think this was PwC Krochevo last year when he bombed out in day two. He was leading as usual. And then he probably went too aggressive and then took the first retrieve bus back to the hotel. And I asked him, I was like, are you dealing with it fine? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I was. And I said how? And like, what's, what's your thought process?

And he said, like, I have thrown quite a few helmets in my back in the day, but now I've kind of gotten over it. So is it more or less like a process that you cannot force of calming down and learning to deal with your defeats? Or is it a conscious effort that the sooner you do, the better it is? Because in the end, you're the only one who's entering a self destruct mode when you do that. Nobody else is paying the price for your happiness or for your defeats. Yeah, for me, it's a conscious effort. Yeah, totally. I mean, we've all, we've all done it.

I mean, I remember the the one time after, you know, I think it was my first World Championships many years ago. And I've actually flown my personal best. I've flown 150 something kilometres, but I only just short of the goal and my gloves went in One Direction, the other glove in another direction, helmet thrown one way. And, and it was that moment where in that landing field where I had a word with myself and I thought, come on, Russ, what's that? You know, you've just done the best flight, the furthest flight you've ever done and you're still in one piece. You're an amazing place. You're, you're privileged, like you said earlier, you know,

we're very privileged to be able to do what we do. And I realised I was making a big scene over absolutely nothing. And so since that day, I, I, I have never thrown another helmet or glove anywhere. But you still get, I hate bombing out. We have to hate bombing out. If you hate bombing out, when you, you learn strategies and decision processes that avoid bombing out. But I still do it. I, I, I bombed out badly last year in, in Macedonia, in Krishova as well on the last day of a comp, which I think I was winning on the last day or I was close to the top anyway

somewhere. And I completely blew the comp. But you know, I allow myself a couple of minutes to be pissed off and then there's no point in carrying on with that mindset. So I just let it go. You just have to let it go. And I think once you've heard enough disappointment in life, you can let it go much easier. I think as you get older and more mature as a pilot, not necessarily just in age, but just in whatever you're doing, you've, you've had it, you've had bad, you know, we've all bombed out and we'll all bombed out again in the future. And as long as you have that

mindset and think of the long run rather than just a very short run, then it allows you to kind of deal with it better and I think you'll find the best pilots in the world deal with it quite well. Does it come to some, like somewhere to the levels of testosterone we have in our body? I mean, I cannot speak the same for female pilots, but as you age it does gradually decrease. And of course your drive, your anger, your a lot of other things change physically in human body. So does it have a bigger role to play as well? I think it probably does. I think that, you know, the hot

headed ones of normally then their 20s, only 20s and they, you know, they want to, they want to come, they want to come onto the scene and prove a point and, and the, and the the pain of not achieving is, is is harder for them. I think, you know, like you're talking about Maxine was a bit that way when he was younger, Otto was, but now they've been through that process, They've won, they've lost, they've won again, they've lost again. They've been through this cycle. And at the end of the day, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. And I think as long as you, you, you keep that in the front of your mind, but it, it doesn't

really matter. You know, as long as you land safely and you're not broken, then it's not so bad. And so I think a bit of maturity certainly helps with that. I think about testosterone, but I think maturity is, is the is what helps deal with that because I think you have to be competitive to, to do well. But if you're too competitive, you're going out too quickly. And those sort of pilots, they, I've seen them come and go, but they don't really stick around a huge amount of time, I don't think. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do remember a statement. I don't know where I heard it, but someone said that you

mentioned paraglider pilots tend to peak around the age of 30 years in their lifetime, let's say. Is that more or less the sweet spot when you have enough aggression slash experience and you know you're able to navigate the risk versus reward spectrum responsibly? Or is there like more to that statement which people don't know yet? I think, I think it's to do with experience. I think experience is, is just the king in, in competitive paragliding. We see young guys come along and I'd take Oh no. And, and Maxime is a great example. They they came on the scene at roughly the same time and they were roughly the same age. I think they were early 20s when

they started competing at the top level and they were the two young matadors, you know, the, the, the hot shots coming in and they wanted to prove a point. And on their day they did prove a point. They proved that they could attack and win tasks. But it took them a while before they started winning competitions and it took a while before they started winning competitions regularly. And I think I've seen with most pilots that come along, myself included, is that yeah, mid 30s or after flying for 15 years, something like that is when you kind of peek and reach your your best. And I think for me, I started

flying when I was 21 and I was probably peeking at the best that I've flown in my mid to late 30s. And when I look at other pilots coming through now like Sebastian Ospina, he's really peaking right now and he's of that age. Ono has been. Ono, I rate is the best pilot that we've had in our generation. Nobody has dominated the sport like he has. He had something like 15 podiums in a row. And that's podiums, a good level comps, That's World Cups, that's European Championships, World Championships and French championships. It's not, you know, it's not beginner comps at all. And that's that's an insane statistic that is it hasn't been

touched in our generation and I don't think it will be for another while. It's a very hard one to maintain. So yeah, no, I think, I think we, it takes 15 years. You you though we can, it takes 15 years of competing to be able to be at your best. I'd say that way you just generate so much experience and it becomes a little bit more hard wired into your decision making process because you know we've all made the mistakes, you've made all the mistakes there is to be made. You continue to make those mistakes, but you you minimize the amount of time you make the mistakes.

Just to provide a reference point for the listeners, approximately how many hours per year in those 15 minutes are an average should a pilot look for? How many hours you've got to fly as much as you can. I mean, life gets in the way. There's people with jobs, lives, families, but you, you, I, I think you need to be flying. You should be aiming at 100 hours a year, be able to, to fly and to be able to do 3 or 4, four competitions a year is, is, is a, quite a healthy way to progress. But even if you do, yeah, you're looking at 10 competitions before you start to really get

get better. And let's say test pilots, I'm, I'm not sure how Connor and like Baptiste or someone of that stature does, but are they clocking in like 4-5 hundred every year? Is is that the level of experience that the elites are having? Yeah, but Oh no. And I, we fly around about 500 hours a year, I think. No, I'll know a bit more than me because he does more competitions. But you know, our testing work is something like that. Yeah, we're, we're, we're flying every day. It's flyable pretty much. And we get, we put a lot of time in the saddle, definitely. What a life, Ross.

I want to. I want to talk about pacing it out because I believe holding back is very important. Burnouts are real. Everyone faces. Everyone is a human. Yeah, like everybody is has to process their emotions. But there is something that differentiates the great from the good, and hard work is probably the only answer. Talent only goes so far. So you want to be a great pilot? You want to go out and. Make it count where it matters the most. For example, 15 podiums in a row is one of the reference points. You know the amount of drive he must have had. And I can let this know to the listeners that Honoren was one

of the first guests on the show. If you're keen, just Scroll down the menu. You will listen to his episode gem of a production. It's a tell all tale on how he made it and what he really kind of what his essence is in flying. But let's say to keep it, to keep it within your limits. And I, I, I love the way you put it, that it's to keep the lust going. How do you how do you not overdo something that you're obsessed with They're. Not well, I'm not doing it too much. I think this is something I've been very conscious of in the last, well probably the last

1520 years I've only done 3 competitions a year, 4 competitions maximum. Every now and then I did a year of five competitions, but most of the time I'm not competing that much because if I if I take too many competitions, I start to get a bit bored a bit and annoyed a bit. Whereas whereas just doing a few comps a year keeps it fresh and exciting. And, but I think when you're starting out, you have to go through the process and do as much as you physically can. And those pilots that do that can dedicate that much time and do that many comps, you see their progression going the fastest.

And I think in Paradigm, it's relatively easy to get to a good level. I mean, it's not like tennis where you could play tennis solidly for three years but you could never have a game with Federer. Whereas if you dedicated to paragliding, you can go out there and go head to head with honour. You probably won't win, but you will. You can give him a good run for his money. So paragliding is good for that. You know, lots that you don't need to be ultra talented physically or mentally to be able to do well. And we see lots of pilots get good. There's lots of good pilots in

the world right now. The hardest step is the last step. The hardest step is is into is to become a great pilot. And I think that is once you get to that level, it's it's more of a mental thing. Then it's your mindset and how you think and how you expect to Keith, how you expect to finish, how you expect to do well. And I think you know, someone like Ono will just he he expects to win every competition he flies and he flies in a way to win that competition every now and then, you know, it messes up and he'll he'll have a bad come. But if you always go in with

that winning mindset, you're more likely to achieve and do well. But it's, we talk about sports psychology quite a lot in paragliding. And I've always said that it's, it's something that you can only really use once you've had results. You can only if you've never had a good result, you can't think yourself to be a better pilot. But once you have good results, once you have great flights, for example, you can, you can always bring yourself back into that mindset to try and to try and put yourself in the right mindset to be able to perform the the best you can. I'm thinking from, let's say, I

wouldn't say a beginner, but let's say an intermediate. You, you got like 50 to 200 hours under your belt. You can't stop thinking about it. You're more or less obsessing over racing or, you know, just chasing the glory as hard as you can. You tend to overlook a lot of things when you're rushing. Of course rushing is not advisable. But let's say if you as a pilot are rushing, is there a Safeway to rush where you can mitigate the risks better because you just want to be there so damn bad? I don't think there's any shortcuts or safe ways to rush in power building. No, but I don't think there is.

I mean, you can. You can do it as much as you can, but always, you know, you, you, you soon become the, your, your, your. The biggest danger to yourself, and it's something I talk a lot about when we're at work is, you know, for, especially for Ono and I, who we fly every day, all day, every day. The biggest danger is, is us and the decisions we make as to when to fly or when not to fly because you can, you can get overconfident really easily. And we all know all the experienced pilots know that you know, they're when there's, when you meet, when you're flying in

conditions where there's dust devils and things like this going on, you've got to be, you shouldn't be flying. And I, so I think for intermediate pilots, I saw one the other day we were flying. It was an amazing day here at Cordon and really good strong thermals, quite a bit of wind and there was a big a beginner up there really struggling and there was only Ondo and I flying. It was really strong conditions and the beginner pilot was up flying with us so he had no control whatsoever and it was just quite worrying to see really that people when you're in that very keen, lustful part of your flying career is where

you have to be able to recognise that and you have to be able to self regulate, especially the conditions you flying.

I'm sorry I lost my thought process for a second. I had such a big question coming up but shit I. Hope I answered the last one. I hope I answered the last one. Sorry. You can you can cut edit this out. I have to, I have to. I can't bring this What? Jesus, I had such a huge thought process coming out, but let me let me just recompose. This happens in flying as well when you lose the thermal as well, right? Yeah, yeah, yes. Russ, I remember hearing you talk about the G experience because I think that is one thing that I can relate personally. What's the G experience?

The G Force experience because I, I can relate to it personally and you I, I wouldn't call it rushing, but I would definitely say skipping a step. I was I was a 90 hour pilot and I had flown an Ena until then and I was like OK, I'm finally ready. But I was flying the Himalayas beer billing where it it can get quite punchy, quite rough. And I just upgraded to a high BI think 9th or 10th flight. So it was like less than 5 or 6 hours with that wing. Got an asymmetric and went into double twisted auto rotation. Until then I hadn't done an SIV because somehow it hadn't come

in my life by then. But when that circular motion was pulling me down, the forces were so overwhelming that I'm more or less froze. If I'm completely honest, the glider was very powerful, violent, angry, and it just seemed that no matter how much energy I put, how much strength I had, it did not want to move. So I deployed fairly high. I think I was like almost 2000 meter above ground level. So I was at an altitude like 4 or 5000. But what I'm what I'm coming to is that the G forces are such a huge probability when you're flying an aircraft like a paraglider, how often or like how important is it to keep your

G tolerance? First of all, be aware of it and secondly, develop it, because I think the more you do it, the more Peace of Mind you have. I could say that. Yeah, I think from what I've read about G tolerance is that we all have a slightly different G tolerance and it's nothing really to do with physical fitness or anything like that. It just depends on your own body. I think we can train it and I see it on a daily basis where some days I'm super strong and I've got amazing tolerance and other days I'm losing vision without having a great deal of G. So I think we vary depending on

on the day, depending on the hydration or or other factors, but it's definitely something you need to be aware of. When I used to teach SIVI used to want to always introduce pilots to G quite early on in the course because I wanted the pilots themselves to understand their own G tolerance. Because if you know your own G tolerance, you can can avoid going past the limit. Because if you're, especially if you're, you know you, your decision to throw your reserve up high was probably excellent because had you held on for much longer, you start to lose your vision and then you can't see anything. And within a couple of seconds

of not being able to see anything, you're gone and you black out. And that's so getting your reserve out before you lose your vision is is normally a very wise thing to do. But let's say SIVS are very controlled environment and of course, you know, they only come or the opportunity to do an SIV only comes to you that often, depending upon wherever you're learning or whatever ecosystem you, you're flying in as a as as a recreational or the semi, you know, experienced pilot, can you just go out? I mean, of course 2 liners or anything beyond will go out of trim if you practice spirals pretty often.

But E and A&E and B wings low B. I'm, I'm talking about like beginner intermediate lighters. Is it healthy enough to just go out and do this every once in a while to test test the waters yourself within your limits and not doing anything crazy? Yeah, I think it is. I think if you, if you know your G tolerance, if you've done a spiral bibes on an SOB course or under a controlled environment within the instructor, if you have altitude, then I, I, I see them as quite as a relatively safe means of practice practicing your G tolerance. And you can develop your flying skills to try and, you know,

generate, get the wing nose down and then exit without too much energy. And then so it teaches you and you can learn how to control the energy of, of the wing so that it's not pitching and surging all over the base when you exit. So I think it's with altitude, it's a, it's a reasonably safe thing to do as so long as you know your G force limits and so long as you know your wing as well. Because I nearly, I nearly died very early in my flying career, In fact, from a spiral dive where I've done a few spiral dives. And whenever I've done a spiral

dive, the glider just recovered as soon as I put my hand up. And so the one one day I decided to try and do one down, down a little bit lower to the ground on a wing I hadn't flown before. And I put my hand up to exit the spiral and nothing happened. And I ended up obviously weight shifting away and breaking away, which fortunately for me was an instinctive process to do. And I ended up practically doing the ground spiral. But I just about got away with discovering my first experience of a neutral spiral. And I've never even heard of a neutral spiral back then. Whereas nowadays it's a bit more

common knowledge. And I think it's always wise to to go into these things knowing as much as you can and knowing just expect as as long as you, you go in with the mindset that every time you do a spiral dive, it's going to remain neutral. And if you go in with that mindset, then you are always ready to opposite weight shift, opposite brake to pull it out as a habit in testing, when we're testing new wings and I'm testing spiral dive, I will only spiral to the right. And the reason I do only spiral dives to the right hand side is so that if I do lose my vision and I start to become

disorientated, I know I've got to pull left to exit and I will always have to only pull left to exit. So when I'm testing I I I only have a spiral dive to the right. Just out of curiosity. I have. I think I felt this myself. Keeping on spirals to one single direction repeatedly is more likely to put your wing out of tune in one way. Because I I did feel my wing. No, definitely yeah. No, definitely yeah. I mean, ideally you wanna you wanna fiery or glider equal amounts in both directions, especially for the the race horses, for the for the comp wings for the two liners.

What in fact, all modern wings, all modern wings, because back in the day, you know, everything had two 100K line everywhere, 300K line everywhere, big thick ropes. Whereas now we're optimised everything, even down onto E&B wings, the the optimised line sets. And so they and the sale, the constructions of the sale isn't quite as strong as it used to be. Maybe so you can stretch out or win quite easily if you repeatedly spiral it in the same direction. So I recommend to always do equal sides I. Want to come back to the kit point after this one. But Russ, first of all, thank you for mentioning your

experience. I'm pretty sure, like I don't know if this is like a jinx or something that once you get a bike, you do crash, you know, at least once before you learn how to ride properly And like para lighter as well that once you really start pushing it, you do end up, you know, what is it like the analogy that some pilots have landed in a tree and some pilots are yet to land in a tree or something like that? But like the question that I'm very curious is that how to process fear the right way? Because I remember when I was walking away from that deployment, endless questions

were coming in my mind. And one of them was that why the hell can't I fly a hang glider when all I'm chasing is the art of flight and a rigid wing is more safer than a collapsible wing. And of course, you know, there was a whole list of thoughts that I eventually wrote down and I processed it and then I kind of made peace with with them. And that's why I kind of got got back on the horse when I was comfortable. But what is your way of processing fear every time something which was outside your comfort zone happens? I think, I think with time you

develop a kind of fear tolerance. I guess early in my flying career I had, there was times where I'd take off and I'd be petrified and I would, I would, yeah, have irrational fear. And I knew it was irrational, but I didn't have enough experience and confidence in myself to really fully understand it. So, so you, you become fearful because you're, we're, we're all fearful of the unknown. And it was partly because of that experience. And that I, you know, I really decided early on, I really wanted to just understand as much as I can about paragliders and, and the way they fly and, and, and how they react when they're not flying.

So I could overcome those irrational fears. But I think it's a normal process. And I think, you know, all of us who fly, we've all felt fear. And if you haven't felt fear, then you probably will feel, feel fear in the future or you should have a word with yourself because what we do is so unnatural. We're in environment where we're just not meant to be. And when you're, until you've been exposed to for long enough in those environments, fear is a really normal process. So if you do suffer fear, it's not because you're deficient in any way, it's because you're perfectly normal. How you deal with fear is by and with knowledge and with

experience you can overcome fear. And I think having hours in the saddle training as much as possible, going to SIV to control courses, pilot progression courses, all of these things allows you to, to deal with fear in a better way. And I think for me, for example, when I did, I, I very distinct memories of when I did my first ever SIV course and I was, I was crapping myself. I was shitting myself. I was with Jockey and I don't even really remember my first SIV course because all I was worried about was how I was going to react. I wasn't really listening to Jockey about exactly what to do

because I was just worried. I was just hoping I wasn't going to freeze. And it was only my second or third SIV course. I actually started learning because by which time I had enough confidence to know that I'm, I wasn't going to freeze and I wasn't going to react badly. So I think as you learn yourself and how you react and how you are and how you react to extreme situations, that's when the fear can start to, to come down. But we're dealing with fear on date on on a daily basis as test pilots, you know, it's something that we we have to go through and we and we continually go through.

You know, it's never, it's you never get particularly comfortable pulling full speed collapses on comp wings. It's not something that is ever you can get comfortable with, but you can get, you can just by repeating and doing and doing and doing just it becomes easier. But me, when I first started as a test pilot, fear even I was a reasonably competent pilot when I started, but fear was a big part of the first couple of years. As you're learning and as soon as you've, you've learnt more and your, your skill set has increased, then the fear starts to subside more. And the, and the less fear you

have, the more fun you have. So for me, the, the fun curve in paragliding went up after 200 hours because I had less fear. That curve still continues. I'd feel it's a really good thing because like now, for example, when I get scared in the air now there's a real reason for it. And I really listen to myself when I'm scared in the air now because when I get scared in the air now, it's either because there's an issue with the wing that I'm flying or. Normally because the conditions are just too strong or I put myself in a rubbish place or done made a stupid decision, you

know, but it's, it's hard when you're learning to be able to recognise irrational or to be able to distinguish between irrational fear and and, and genuine fear, real fear. OK. That, that is a very interesting point that you made there, that there are some unknowns which only experience tells you. And you know, that is how you see the light of the day. But I want to talk about inner voice a little bit here because to me, inner voice is something that always exists. And that is like you cannot lie to yourself deep down. You can, you can, you can put on a mask, you can show a personality on the outside.

But when it comes to knowing your true self and I can give an example of myself over here, you know, like tomorrow it looks flyable in Oslo. And I want to go and slide this take off, which is my absolute favorite. It's right in the city, allows me to see the cityscape. One of the most beautiful flights I have every time. However, I haven't been there for the past six months. I'm considering taking a wing that I haven't flown for the past six months because I was flying something else and my reserves aren't repacked for more than six months. So there are quite a few. I mean, I wouldn't say red

flags, but quite a few red lines that I feel that I'm overstepping, which is causing me to rethink and saying that, hey, why can't you put in an effort and go to a take off, which is an hour away, which has got a bit more leeway. But again, the, the pull towards this one is somehow making me still make that choice. So deep down, if I'm honest with myself, it's like my inner voice is being ignored due to which the fear is coming. So can this more or less be applied in a lot of situations if you're brutally honest with yourself? Because you will know what

you're doing eventually? Yeah, but you're, you're, you're the duality. I think as it's known, is, is really important. But sometimes your inner voice is, is, is not right. Sometimes it's incorrect. Sometimes it's irrational. Often the irrational thoughts come from from that voice, though. I, I think you have to, you have to know thyself, don't you? I mean, for me personally, and I've always had this in the matter, especially paragliding, is I've always been really progressive with everything I've done and I've never tried to step too fast too soon. I've been probably a little bit too slow in my progression in that sense. I, I've flown for years, but I've done 4 or 500 hours before

I flew an E&D type wing, a high performance wing. You know, I did my time on intermediate. So I I progressed relatively slowly, but I think your inner voice is something that you should certainly listen to, but accept that sometimes it is also wrong as well. But there's always a fine line in paragliding between aggression and pushing yourself and making yourself a better pilot and holding yourself back too much so that you don't really progress at the rate that you want to do so. I think being brutally honest with yourself is, is is essential. I think in in any sport, in any extreme sport and paradigm is a really dangerous sport.

And I think is if you acknowledge that, then you'll be able to make better decisions as you go forward. Right. That's such a good way to put that. Because I think for anybody who's wondering, just just hit the rewind button and listen to it all over again. That was like pure wisdom, you know, when it comes to listening to your inner voice and processing fear. But Russ, while, while we're talking about the the kit and like a little bit of this, I want to quickly touch upon the topic of maintenance or let's say repacking or stuff like that. And there's enough wisdom out there which a lot of people will

know. We don't have to spend a lot of time on it, but not repacking your kit, your reserve periodically. The only danger is that it might take longer opening times. Or is there more to that statement? I don't know, I'm not an expert in this subject, so I can't really comment a huge amount. I've certainly been, I think, I don't think I've ever repacked my parachute on the six month process. I think it's it's, it's a little bit longer and I think it depends on the environment. It depends on whether you've had to, to get the harness wet. It depends on static electricity as well, because static can hold the wings.

We've seen enough with, there's been enough cases over the years of parachutes that have been packed, squashed and unpacked for years that didn't open properly. So I, I, I think to mitigate those risks, having your parachute packed at least on an annual basis, is, is a wise thing to, to, to do, yeah. Did did you say that they have been? They had been stayed packed for quite a while and then repacked and then did not perform on upon deployment. No, normally it's when they've been packed for a long time. They can, especially if moisture gets in there or any static energy. It's static electricity. Anything like that can keep keep

it closed. But I'm not an expert on that subject so I can't. I don't feel like I'm really in a place to comment. You need to speak to someone who packs lots of reserves and does lots of practice deployments in the line. Actually. It's not something I've done a huge amount. We've had an episode with URS Hari like he's probably gonna be given the credit. Right he's the man yeah yeah, he's the man yeah. Yeah. So I'll I'll to whatever he says because I'm not so cool I. Was going to say that episode with him has been the most listened to episode and it's on the top of the list in Spotify.

So anybody who's listening, just go to the Spotify episode index and you'll see, oh, sorry, gem of production. You know, the I, I honestly never knew there were so many secrets that existed with the parachutes because manuals only tell you so much until you hear from the guru himself. So that was quite insightful. Yeah. Oh, I need to. I need to listen to that one then definitely. Right, right. But Russ, this is another you can say a psychological question because this this is definitely a mental thing. I would say. I was just wondering when I moved to a Western society, one thing that I saw that everything

was super new. You know, I've grown up in Asia, I've grown up in a developing country and I'm not used to seeing extravagant amounts of expenditure on daily usage things. Quality of life is very different in, in, in different parts of the world. And usually when you live in a Western European country, especially somewhere like Norway, you see you, you get used to like your new normal becomes fairly of a high standard. And of course the same thing. So with the gliders as well that back in, in Asia, you, you, you would see gliders which are a bit dirty. I mean, of course, some of that can be credited to the

environmental conditions that it's, it's dusty and everything, but people tend to use their wings a lot more there than what I've seen in, in, in these economies. So what like the question that was coming to my mind was that a lot of times people say that or, or you see people buying new clothes or, you know, having these latest fashion on them. And it has become a statement of self-confidence that it, it, it helps you walk more upright. It helps you bring out your, your, your best self outside. Does the same kind of relate to the kit in paragliding up to a point? Because a lot of us are more than happy investing in

equipment that we don't really need because it looks flashy and it looks like it's the latest story on the market and stuff like that. So how does how does spending make you feel better? Or does it actually make you fly better? Yeah, I think, I think it's, I think, I think we've seen so much progression in paragliding equipment over the last few years, well over the last 15 years. I would say that there were real tangible benefits for upgrading your equipment to get a small percentage of additional performance because a small percentage of additional performance can actually give large amounts of it opens the world to a lot more

possibilities with flying, you know, just a few percentage more performance in your wing can get exponentially more when you're trying to fly across country. When I left, I have a similar experience to you because I came from a third world country, a developing country into into the first world. When I left the UK and and moved to France and when I left the UK we had the the 100 kilometre club was quite exclusive. And now that same club, now the exclusive club is the 300 kilometre club. And we haven't improved performance free fold. We've only added, you know, a certain percentage, a small percentage of performance over

the years, but that just makes flying long distance way more feasible and possible. So I think if you can fly a modern wing and when I say modern something within six years old, you are going to have access to, to pretty top notch performance in paragliding harness wise. I think you know, the submarine type harness do give additional performance, but they're certainly really relevant to competition flying or serious cross country flying. You can still bang out a 300 kilometre flight on a any standard called harness. You don't need anything special like that. I think what's different with with paragliders is that they, they can't, they, they do age

obviously and the performance and their safety goes down with age. And so there's no reason. I mean, I totally understand it in certain places where it's financially more restrictive, but there's no point in flying wings until they're they become unworthy. There's just no point in doing that. You may as well just keep good modern equipment that that will keep you safe. I'm so glad you mentioned the the submarine example because I've been very curious about one thing. I'm not sure who I was having a chat with but I think when you guys came out with the early protos of submarine I heard the story that Honoren was smoking

people on enzos and conventional harness when he was flying a Zeno plus a sub combination. So of course the pilot's skill were, you know, top notch and yet he was able to squeeze in every last bit of performance from a Xeno, which was eclipsing the Enzo's. So when I heard that I was like, of course, just like any other pilot, I was very keen to upgrade to the flashiest tech available on the market. But since it came with a bit of a trade off in back protection, I stuck to the XO seat type harness that I fly with. Does upgrading for minimum performance gain really make a

difference when you are not landing within the 1st 25 to 50 pilots in a PwC? Or is it just a psychological thing that everyone is flying the flashiest twice so I have to be there as well? No, I think it's, I think it's not really of value. I, I, I see very good pilots who don't fly submarines doing very well in competitions. The speed and efficiency is borne by decision making. It's not borne by the equipment that you use. You could go to an any average competition. Powell Takax kind of proved that point in the SRS when he won flying a rush, an E&B wing. And so no, your speed and

efficiency is borne by decisions, not the equipment you fly. For sure if you want to, if you want to compete at the top level, then obviously you need to be on on the on the right equipment and have it set correctly. But if you just want to if you want to roll up to APWC and finish in the top 20, you don't have to do that. No, you have just have to make good decisions and fly well throughout the week for a top 20 finish. If you want to start getting near the podium or top ten then maybe you need the best. But no you can. You can finish very well in the

PwC on a Zeno and a non submarine heart. Damn that's so nice to hear because I think a lot of people love the marketing gimmick and up to a point I think in in a capitalist society it does mess with your head. But that is where self-control and everything else comes, that you face the reality rather than just getting carried away and then make responsible decisions. Yeah, well, it is exciting as well, isn't it? It's exciting to have new equipment. It's exciting to have the best equipment. It's exciting and it's great. It's great. We're in a position now when I first started competing, you couldn't compete against the

factory pilots because they had the prototypes, they had the special equipment that wasn't accessible to all. One of the beautiful things that's happened in our sport in the last 15 years, really, yeah, 15 years, is that you can. Now we have access to all the same equipment that the factory pilots have and that's levelled the playing field somewhat and and made it possible for any dedicated experienced pilot to compete at the top level, at the best level. I was actually going to come to the manufacturer's point anyway. So I'm glad we are talking about this Like paragliding is an industry that has evolved. I would, I would say rapidly up

to a point, you know, like free flight has kind of gone on in leaps and bounds when it comes to convenience and performance. And you know, putting all those parameters and any, any fast growing industry requires everyone to keep up pace to survive. A lot of times we have seen niche industries are more or less like one man, one man LED army where the the inventors, the founders are the ones who are spearheading and as soon as they start fading, the the creation kind of starts to fade with them. A lot of brands have come and gone. A lot of good ones have come, done their bit and moved on.

But legacy brands are there for a reason. And Ozone has remained, I wouldn't just say relevant, but like at the forefront of pushing the limits, setting the new state of school and redefining what's possible next. Is there a short answer to how did you guys do it? Like if there's an aspiring brand listening to this. I think, I think it's a combination of the work ethic that we have in ozone. Ozone from from early when I first started, the work ethic was very strong. We had very high standards for ourselves and we always were looking to to make the best things that we possibly can. But I think the major, the major force behind the our success in

competitions is Luke Carmel. We, when, when Luke joined the, the company, he bought a level of knowledge and understanding and a thought process that has allowed us to maintain that level at the top. And so I think there's, I think we have a lot of thanks for the, for the work that Luke has done and the, the, the, the ethic and the, the way we think about processing the thoughts of progression is, is very much down to him. But he's been backed. What, what, what what's been good with Ozone is that, you know, especially when in the early days, he was backed by design by David, who had experience, and also by the

bosses of Ozone who almost gave free reign and, you know, the ability to, yeah, go try this, do that, try that, do that. We weren't held back by from above. So it's, it's a little bit different now because the cost of everything, the cost of prototypes has gone up so much that we are not, we're not quite as free rein as we once were, but we've, we've certainly kept the philosophy that it's always good to innovate. We're, you know, we've, we're, we're an R&D company and we aim to keep innovating and we've innovative in, in different ways in different areas. You know, Luke, Luke gave us the, the competition side, the

high performance side. But we've also we're very proud of the, the work we've done in the lightweight equipment. For example, you know when and that goes back from when David first did the X Alps, we made a high performance lightweight wing and from when we made the ultra light series down to the extra extra light, which is where we made the first single surface wing. So NF lights harness that was under was 100 grams. So we, we, we concentrate on being first and foremost an R&B company and we invest a lot in the team, the R&D team. We've we've enlarged recently, we've taken on more brain power. And so there's a good design

base of engineers working for Ozone right now. And much of this focus recently is going into harnesses, and we will see better harnesses in the future as well. I'm very curious about your founding members because like Robbie Whittle only has, you know, so much like Internet presence. But every time he speaks, I I feel like there's a lot of passion behind his thoughts. And, you know, the way he conveys the way he talks about like it's, it's just fascinating to hear him talk about flying. And I really wish to have him on the show as well, because that is like beyond words, something that I've envisioned as well,

just like you. But I'm, I'm just wondering, monetizing your passion is, I think, the biggest blessing that exists on this planet because somehow you are able to make sense of your reality and be happy with it and always have something to look forward to. Do you have some advice for people who are looking to monetize their passion in this industry, considering that you you are a part of one of the most successful teams that exists on this planet? I think. I think the one fundamental thing you have to have is just a deep love for, for flying. And that deep love changes as you, as, as you, as you grow and

as you age. And it, you know, you go, I've talked about it before in the past where it's, it's like a marriage. You know, you have this lustful first few years and then it fades and, and then it turns into a deeper love. So I, I, I see. Well, I always go back to my marriage analogy with, with flights. It's certainly been that way for me. And and Rob's a good example that you that you bring up. When I joined Ozone, the reason I joined Ozone was because Rob wanted to stop testing. And he said to me, he said, he said, Russ, yeah, I'm done with

it. I don't want to test anymore. And I remember being at that stage in my flight. I've been flying 10 years, but I couldn't empathise with what he was saying. I just couldn't understand how he could be in a position where he didn't want to continue flying or pesting or developing. It's, I couldn't, I couldn't relate to it at all. And it's, it's only recently that I kind of, yeah, I understand where he's at now. Because once you've done it enough and you've scratched your itch, you've, you've got rid of that just absolute need to, to fly. Yeah, in other factors, other things in life become, come to the fore and become more

important. David de Gaulle, the guy who I work with, he, you know, he's an amazing pilot, super talented test pilot, designer and who taught me how to test. And I worked with him when I first joined Ozone and recently he's kind of stopped flying. He stopped testing and and flies just very occasionally for fun at the weekends with on a tandem with some friends. But otherwise his passions is important. What he wants to do in his spare time have gone have gone elsewhere. So I think it's a normal process. Rob's much the same. Rob went into kites. He's actually coming back to paragliding quite now and he

would make a fantastic guest. You should get him on definitely, because he's got very broad life experience and stories and he's a super cool guy, so definitely worth having him on. But I think this, to maintain a long, long career in flying, you have to have a very, very deep love of flying. I think that's the core teaching. Paragliding is another thing. I think most, most paragliding instructors have 10 years in them, and after 10 years they become jaded. They've said it all before. They've been through the whole process before, and they lose that spark that made them a good instructor five years previously. I certainly was was was that case.

I was a reasonably OK instructor in my mid 20s. By the time I stopped teaching, I probably wasn't as good as I was before. Because you just become a bit annoyed with it, you know, because you're talking about flying much more than you are actually flying. So it's hard to have a long career in paragliding because it's hard to, it's a small, it's a difficult business, a difficult industry to work in because you're, you're not working, you're working with people who are your friends and everybody knows everybody. And it's difficult to do business with friends you know especially well. You'll find out when you do. Guiding means that you'll get

repeat customers, repeat customers who become friends and then you don't want to charge them as much as you did before. And it all, it's a difficult industry to work in really. Like I've always thought, but I've not. It's the only industry I've ever worked in. There's something about it which is inexplainable. And in case the audiences are wondering, the the mention about guiding that Russ said, as I think I've said it in a previous couple of shows that we are working out on bringing the most exotic paragliding tours on the planet to you guys. So stay tuned, stay excited. It's it's a very nice project that I can't wait to share with you all.

But coming back to the show, Russ, I'm so glad you mentioned about teaching. You know, this is this is something that has bothered me. Maybe would be the right kind of a word is that passing on the baton is a very important skill in anyone's life. You have to identify before it starts becoming counterproductive. And this is so true for teaching. I have come across so many instructors. I don't mean to badmouth anyone, but if you are reducing your own quality of imparting what you love the most, then you're doing injustice to the system. First of all, how to identify that the stage has come, and secondly, how to convince

yourself that you have to make it happen otherwise you're hitting the axe on your own foot kind of a thing. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to identify, but we've all seen those instructors and we see them regularly. You know, they, they've been teaching too long and it's become part of their life and what they do. But they, they don't really give it the same energy that they did, you know, a few years previous. I definitely saw it with myself teaching. I taught SIV for a long time as well and I could see it happening in SIV as well. And it got to a point where it's

like, OK, you know, that's it's, it's a good time to stop, quit while we were ahead. And half's on the batten to people who are rated younger and motivated and wanting to, to do that. So I think you just have to be brutally honest with yourself and also accept that there is a, you know, there is a finite time for these things to be at their best. But no, it's, it's hard to walk away from when you've been doing it for a while. Definitely, definitely. And I do still miss teaching SRB every now and then. Not a great deal, but a little bit. Can the success of Ozone be also

contributed to the fact that the founding members did eventually pass on the button when it was the right time? Like in that sense. Oh well. But the guys who started the company is still very much there and they're still very much involved with it. Mike Kavanaugh is the CEO. David Pilkington was the was in charge of our production. We have a, we have our own factory in Vietnam and he was responsible for for setting all that up and getting that things going. He lived out there for many, many years before he came back to the UK, went back to the UK. So they're still involved with

the day-to-day running, but they have let go. You know, Mike used to be in control of every little bit of ozone and now he's let it go. But he could only let that go once the company had reached a certain level. And now we have a management team and, and it's a very different company now than it was when I joined. But, but, you know, change is the only certainty in life and growth is, is really important. So now we're a, we're a much bigger company. There's more of us. People do specialist, more specialist roles. And change is good. Change is necessary and to stay at the top now you need to be innovative and you need to be

able to make good product. You know, we're only as good as our last wing that we make and you can't rest on your laurels. We've seen it with other manufacturers come and go and I think there was a period, there was a period where it seemed like we're seeing it now with harness manufacturers. In fact, there's a few harness manufacturers just popping up making boutique submarines and things like that. And, and I think that's really hard for someone to maintain for a long time. Because if you're if you're, if you want to start a paragliding company, it's relatively easy. You just get some software and you can send off your designs to

a factory and they can send you prototypes. It's not that hard, but the work that goes on behind a product to get it to market with the marketing, the photos, the websites, the stock management, the order systems, it's, it's, it's a, it's a massive endeavour. And I think it's becoming more and more difficult to be able to do that as a one man show than it was 20 years ago. And I think now the the, the industry is maturing in a way that there's a lot of good established companies making good products right now. Right now we're in a really good position in the paragliding world where we've got a choice,

a big choice of very good wings and harm seasons. You know, there's a lot of innovative divide designers out there. So we're in a healthy position at the moment, I think like the industry as a whole. I'm glad you mentioned change is the only constant because that kind of I every time I think about evolution of wings as well. And I, you know, I'm diverting from the topic a bit here, but from open class to triple C and now CSC, the civil sports class, there has been noise around the change from both, you know, like sides which say this is good, this is not. But somehow a lot of times I

personally feel that when excellence is basically limitless, right? That is the way you can excel in something when you truly chase it in a limitless manner. Are we changing for the good or are we changing just because change is the only constant? Very good question, I think. I think the whole, the whole process of what we've seen over the last years, you know, over the 15 years where we went away from open class into CCC and now into sport class competitions, CCFC and the whole debate that's gone on recently about harnesses, protection and the like. For me, it's a line drawing exercise and by which I mean we

all have a line and my line will possibly be different than yours and my line is different than my wife's and my line is very different than my mother's. And so where we draw this line, where do we say what is acceptable, what is better, what is worse? Where we draw that line is. And I think the reason, you know, the utterings that's been going on in the the pilot union and, and all of that movement just shows how we all have slightly different lines. Where we decide to draw that line I think is a really personal opinion. What is nice is that we're creating categories where people can fly comfortably in the

within the lines that they draw for themselves. So I think we're moving in the right direction and we're moving for the better. But there's part of me that still arcs back a little bit towards the open class days. There was, there was a beauty of the open class and, but I think the reduction of the top speed for the CCC has, has, has led to a real improvement in safety coupled with a big improvement in pilot skill as well and pilot understanding. I used to, I remember the first few PWC's you'd go to years ago, you, you, you'd see someone take a 50% collapse and end up

throwing their reserve and it all seemed a bit futile and pointless. Whereas nowadays I think people's base level is much higher blighted control. So we see less reserve deployments, our top speed is reduced, our gliders are a little bit more stable. So I think, I think the last 10 years, the last decade has been, has been the heyday of paragliding competitions. Right now, paragliding competitions have been more popular than than they ever have been in or since I've been flying. Although change is good, sometimes you have to accept that actually what we have or what we had was a really good thing, you know, and for sure

there's always ways that we can improve. There's always ways that we can make it safer. But often does that make it better? I don't know. I don't know. I think that's where we all have our own individual limit and line. But any, any movement in the world in the, in the for safety is good. But it, it has its limits, doesn't it? I mean, it has its limits where and how far we go with the rules. For example, for example, the CCC rule was, was really good in its day and it did its job, which for me was let's limit top speed. We, we, we, we have to go slower because the wings were so on

edge when they blew out at 70 odd kilometres an hour, it was always missing. So getting rid of trimmers and getting reducing top speed, I think did a really good thing for, for, for pilot safety. But as you know, as Luke has so eloquently pointed out in in in the interview with you and, and then in many other discussions, is that those limits and those rules have created a point where, OK, this is the profile that you need to get the maximum speed out of 14 centimetres of travel. And if we want to improve stability, then we have to reduce top speed. We can only improve stability by being and maintain the same top

speed for that stability by increasing the speed range. So it's although we want to make more stable wings given the given the rules that we have at the moment, if we were to do so, we would have less top speed, which would make us not competitive. So the current rules are forcing designers into kind of 1 optimal kind of design. And I think that's why Luke and others are pushing to, to change the, the, the limiter, the 14 centimetres limiter because that allows to go to, to more stable profiles. Their stable profiles is, is something that we're moving towards and we have done for the last 15 years.

And when we first in the old days of paragliding, you know, we, we have quite highly cambered profiles and we needed it to overcome all the drag that we had. We also had really flat arcs and a combination of high camber and flat arc made super aggressive behaviour post collapse. And they also weren't very resistant to collapse, but that's what was required to be able to not land at the bottom of the hill back in the early 90s. As we've evolved, as performance has got better, as drag has reduced, the arc has increased, which is helped for post collapse behaviour, cycle collapse behaviour. And it's allowed for more stable profiles as well.

But everything you know, has has has its limits with within the current rules. I think I think we all agree, like you were saying earlier, you know, when you after you threw your reserve, you're like, oh, why don't a family hang glider that doesn't collapse? And we've all dreamt of, you know, the paraglider that doesn't collapse. And modern designers are kind of going more in this direction to try and make stronger profiles, more collapse resistance, because we believe that is safer and it is safer. I'd much prefer to fly a wing that didn't collapse the one that did. But we're still, we still have to work within the realms of certification which favours

wings that are easy to collapse rather than wings that are difficult to collapse. So I think we, we're in a process now where I think in the next 1520 years we'll see some more reasonable, I'd like to say radical, but I don't think the WG Six group, which, which made the rules for certification are a radical bunch. So I think we'll, I think we'll see changes in the future to the certification process to make it easier for stronger profile wins to get through. Zillion points that I want to diverge to, but before I want to go, let's say Will Gad mentioned because I've had him on the show

in the early days as well. Another gem of a production. He said the ones who make the change, who will make the change are the ones who go and challenge the the status quo and you know, are like the gung ho about it and stuff like that. So it's the minority that will eventually push us towards getting out of a comfort zone to make sure that we are heading forward and not stagnating ourselves or slipping backwards. When I saw two liner E&C's coming out, yes, they were serving very well to the racing community. But when you compare the racing community to the majority of consumers in paragliding, there are only a handful of pilots.

I thought we were doing a huge disservice to every single intermediate pilot that had the option of going from a lobby to a three liner ENC because suddenly three liner Encs were not that lucrative anymore. So when we are allowing a small minority to make the change for when it comes to ENC class, why aren't we letting the same thought process push or spearhead at the open or triple C levels? Because there we want to pull back, but here we want to push forward. So it kind of baffles to me that are the ones at the helm making certain decisions which are in like hidden interests. I don't want to rub across

anyone in a bad way but it just seems commercial market viability be at the forefront of such busy working rather than the safe or like the fun factor. Well, I just want to push back on how, whether you consider because I, I totally understand when when 2 liner encs came on the market and everyone thinks, oh, we're pushing in the wrong direction. But you just need to think about the previous generation or especially the generation of wins that was previous to to the to the generation that was superseded by the two liners and some of those wings. You could look at the leading edge and it would collapse at full speed.

They were they were trimmed in such a way that they were designed for certification. They worked well in calm air, but as soon as you're pushing along a Ridge in the mountains, they they're not very interesting to fly because they were collapsing all the time. You had to constantly fly active coming off the bar on the bar with your legs. And it was a very evolving, very demanding wing to fly. And then everyone thinks it's two liner, it's two liner, it's difficult, it's dangerous. It's it's much harder, but and, but that's not the case. I think what you find now with two liners is that they're easier to fly for an experienced

pilot. They're easier, less demanding to fly than the old generation 3 liner Encs. They're inherently more stable because the profiles got a bit less CM in it, a bit more CM in it. Sorry. And not only that, but they're easier to control because you've got the wing in your hands at all time and you've got direct angle of attack control with the B risers. So to me it was a no brainer. To me, it's it's an improvement in every way. And I think now if you speak to a lot of the guys that were maybe a bit more reluctant to begin with, they're very, very happy. I think that the success of the

SRS series and that that level of wing is, is testament to that. You know, we, we, we were also cautious as well. We released the LP, we, we re we, we remodelled the Alpena 4 so that we, we also offered a three liner E&C wing out there as well. But I don't think there was a very successful product. Most pilots who fly E&C have moved over to the, the more the two liners these days because it's a win, win situation. I think for me, the, the, for me, the perfect balance is, is low aspect ratio and to line of control. To me, that's just like what we should all be flying and where

we should all go eventually, where all experienced pilots should probably end up flying. Because the fact that we can use collapse lines makes it mean that we can use profiles that are slightly stronger. So they're, they're inherently more stable profiles. They're less likely to collapse. That can also you can trim them in a way that actually makes them a little bit more comfortable as well. And because you've got the the bees, you've always got control of the wing no matter what speed you're going at. So I think that was a real step forward in both performance and in safety for experienced pilots. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Russ experienced pilot versus the majority which is a weakened flyer. Is my dilemma correct or is it just in my head that we are catering to the ones who are pushing the limits? And if that is the case, then why did we ban open class? No, I don't think we are catering to those pushing the limits. I think we've always been and the whole, you know, the, the, the political organisations behind paragliding the WG 6, the PMI, the, the national governing bodies, they've, they've always moved and done everything that's in the best for the majority of the majority of their pilots. And the majority of the pilots

are weekend pilots. If I look, if I think about the, the UK flying community, which is, which is on closest to, you know, there's a lot of experienced pilots there. They may be only flying at the weekends, but they they form the majority of the the pilot base, the beginners and the intermediates are a slightly smaller proportion. They probably make up probably 45% of that group. And we and WG 6, which is, which is the organization that makes the rules for the EN testing. They're very much aware of this and that's why we keep the Ena and the ENB in very simple three liner type wings that we can't use collapse lines with.

But the the irony of that is that the two liners are now more stable than the beginner wings. A beginner wing is more likely to collapse in turbulent air than a high performance wing if with no input. So we're in a situation where beginner low airtime pilots have to fly the inherently less stable wings than the more experienced pilots. But that's just the nature of the certification procedures at the moment and the rules that we currently have. I had Michael Nessler on the show as well. He had come out with, I wouldn't say like truly 2 liner, but he had found a way to put collapse. Yeah.

Yeah, so 2 liner B, of course, it's very enticing, you know, to any pilot who wants to push the limits and kind of go about it. And as a designer, he did his own thing to quench his curiosity. But is 2 liner is like like what is a trade off if A2 liner A comes on the market or is, is that a fair bit of evolution that the industry will go towards? Because yeah, you, you keep on pushing the flight envelope as the year's progress, more or less. At the moment, I think the one thing we can't cheat, I mean, two line, three line, 4 line, it

doesn't matter. We were having these same discussions when we went from four line to three line years ago, you know, exactly the same discussion that we're having when we went from three line to two line. I think what's what, what we don't, what we can't limit is aspect ratio. Aspect ratio is the main factor that defines the behaviour and the demand on the pilot in terminal here, if you look at every manufacturer, their beginner wings have a lower aspect ratio than their high performance wings. There's very, I can't think of any manufacturer that kind of, you know, that the ENB has a higher aspect ratio than their ENC.

It just doesn't really happen unless there's some specialist mounting wings or something. Aspect ratio is the most important factor in very turbulent air. When the wing, when the when you're in really turbulent air and the wing is making shapes and moving in pitch and loses its span cohesion, aspect ratio takes over. And that's why comp wings are a bit more demand, more demand to fly than E&D wings and E&D wings are more than E&C. When we get down to E&B, we're getting into a realms where we current knowledge and technology, well, not technology, but current knowledge. I'd say we're struggling. We, we, we can't make super low

aspect ratio with two lines and still support the whole structure very well. You know something's going to give you, you either have to have a massive gap between the, the A's and the B's, in which case it will be hard to control the, the the cord unless we start bugging in a load of carbon or something. And if you have a big gap between the, the bees and the trailing edge, then you just got this big floppy unsupported thing at the back of the wing, which will give you horrible structure and vague breaks that won't be very nice to fly. So aspect ratio limits where we

can go with two liners at the moment, unless you start bugging in a load of rigid structure in the wing. But another factor as well for me and the big the big point for me, because we did have collapse lines in E and BA few years ago, but that was banned. What's nice about E&B is a is a is a place for up and coming pilots to, to to go to is a. You can have the most exquisite handling. The best tightest turning turning radius is probably on a high performance E&B wing. A good pilot on a on a the A&B wing will be able to turn inside anyone or a comp wing.

So your climb rate can be amazing. The handling is really fun. They're like the Porsche 9/11 of our of our flying machines. So it's actually a really cool place for relatively experienced. When I say that, I mean you'd need to have like 100 hours to be flying a top end high end B at least and maybe done an SIV course. But you find a real sweet spot in in in pure flying pleasure with the E&B wings. And with that wing you can then progress on to doing cross country acro SIV. You can really learn your trade on these high end E&B wings and that gives you in good stead if

you choose because many pilots choose not to go beyond that point. But if you really want to get into more performance and do more cross country, that's when it gives you a good stepping stone into the next level of wing up. So I think right now we're in the best position that we've ever been. When I think about back in the years of what the products that we had throughout all the different ranges for all the different pilots, I think right now looking at the range that Ozone have and looking at the range that other manufacturers have, it's a really good time to be a pilot because you've got

such a good choice of different wings from different manufacturers and there's no, there's no real dogs out there anymore. So it's all good. It's all healthy, I think. Totally agree. And I think with the with this discussion, we answered the question more or less about how to upgrade from a 2 1/2 or three liner E&B to A2 liner C for any pilot who is wandering out there, You know, because like, yeah, as long as stepping on the stepping stone feels comfortable and you've done your homework, just like, yeah, feel free to explore the more exciting world, I would say, which is not just more stable, but also more fun

and expands your flight envelope by a whole lot further. Yeah, I think, you know, we got a lot of feedback at Ozone. I get quite a lot of the feedback at Ozone and a lot of people who were really concerned about the photon, for example, when we released that were pleasantly surprised. Everyone was I had no feedback saying, OK, yeah, this is too much for me. I I want to go back to its four liner Enci don't recall any anything like that. The vast majority of the feedback that we had was, was really positive in, in terms of how comfortable people are, how intuitive it was to fly 2 liners, how easy it was.

And they wish they'd made that step earlier. And the same thing when we released, we when we recently released the Delta last year, which was the lower aspect, the NC, we again, there was a lot of die hard Delta pilots that were a little bit wrecked. They were like, what do you mean you've changed it to A2 liner? You've ruined my Delta experience. And pretty much every one of them have come back to me and said wow, this is amazing, this is brilliant. This is way better than all the other deltas that I've had. And so I think once you kind of, you know this, there's a lot of and I understand why and because

the early days, the first generation of two liners were, were difficult, They were demanding and we haven't quite worked it all out. And they were unpleasant. They had some unpleasant behaviour and were difficult to fly and that gave 2 liners a bad reputation, a bad Rep over the years. Whereas now with the understanding that we've had, we've had two liners have been around 16 years now and in that time the designers have, have have learnt to make them much better. And, and, and part of the testing process as well. We understand the behaviour a little bit better to a point now where if you, if you blindfold me and I had to do a full stall

or a spin, I wouldn't know if it's a 2 liner or a three liner. If you, if, if you, if someone else collapsed it. For me, I'm not. Obviously I can feel what I'm collapsing in my hands, but if someone collapsed I can't tell the difference between a collapse on A2 liner or three liner given if everything else was the same. There is no difference in behaviour. I've come to the conclusion with with the modern generation of of two liners. Wow, I I've always had this notion that two liners just went like less often, but they when they did they was they just went a lot more harder.

But that's such a relief to hear now. No, I don't think that's the case. No, we the wings that went the hardest with the old fashioned comp wings, they, they, they used to go horrible paragliders throughout over the years have gone bad. You know, what tends to happen though, when you do have a wing that's more inherently stable is that it is the really hard turbulence that collapses them. And so when you do get the collapse, it's normally because of very aggressive hard turbulence and you go, oh, that goes harder than the old ones used to. But the old ones used to be going in all turbulence and would go equally and hard in

that same given turbulence. So you do get less collapses, which is why you can become, you know, a little bit less practice that those collapses and the collapses do come a little bit stronger because it's the stronger air that's making them elapse that way. But old high, high CM wings would would collapse equally bad in those conditions. Reserve deployments whether or not the the coefficient, moment coefficient, the reflex, the amount of reflex in the way. Right, there's a lot of technical jargon which like layman does not understand. What's so interesting? Hearing a professional talk about it like that. Yeah. Well, like I was saying, like I

was saying earlier, we went from, you know, very lifty profiles that we had negative CM. So they, their tendency is nose down and we're now going towards more reflex type profiles, which has a nose up tendency in, in, in its movement, which which makes the wings more inherently stable, but it does make them more difficult to get through certification. But, but going back to the two liner, I, I, I really strongly believe that with the latest generation and I can only really talk about the wins that we've made and the wins I've personally developed. But I think we got to a point there where the difference in

behaviour between two line or three line has has merged into insignificance. And in terms of safety, I see the two liner for the right pilot for an experienced pilot as an easier more comfortable winter for. I remember you were like you know earlier a few, a few like moments ago you said that it's quite an amazing time to be a paraglider pilot with the amount of offerings that are there in the industry. The question comes to my mind, is your generation one of the only ones who has seen the most amount of development in our industry? Because you guys have seen it from absolute chaos to, I

wouldn't say butter smooth, but like we're in, I don't know, like that's a lot of evolution that has gone down in two or three decades where you started flying and now you're like, you know. Yeah, I mean that, I mean, paragliding only really existed in the mid 80s, didn't it, with people jumping off with parachutes. And then it's developed into what we have today. And you know, that's, I think it's, it's down to, like you said, the minority pushing it. You know, when the when the SAT theme came on the on the on the scene and they were pushing acro and that was a period when everyone said do acro, you know,

the old pilots and the old pilots and all of that nonsense. And and then those boys came and I would just robbed it and all the old school were like, they'll die quickly. And they didn't. And they pushed the foot, the sport forward. They, they showed what was possible with those old comp wings and they created the whole acro scene, which is narrowing into an acro world tour and people doing tricks that I can't even imagine. And look at the comp scene now. You know, from, from I remember the first comp scene I used to do be like, all I'd worry about was don't land at the bottom of the hill, you know, don't land

at the bottom. And a good day is when you didn't land at the bottom, whereas now I don't even think about landing at the bottom. And we're, we're, we're doing the amazing flying. In fact, flooring has become in the mountains. Racing paragliders for me in the mountains has become. Boring is not the right word, but just way too predictable. It's way too linear. It's like, OK, we're flying in the mountains. I go there, I fly along that at full speed. I do three or four turns in a climb across the valley. I go along there at full speed. I do that ad infinitum until the end of the race and it's not as interesting as it used to be.

There's a beautiful old film on VHS of Robbie Whittle doing the the World Championships in, in Sant Andre back in 1749. I think it was, I don't know what year it was. It was, it was years ago and he was talking about having to climb and make a move, special move just to do something that nowadays you just glide over and land. We, the performance has given us has taken away a little bit of the, the tactical element in racing paragliders in the mountains, which is why for me right now I'm only really interested in flatland flying. My my interest in mountain flying, well, especially mountain racing is diminishing

because it it lacks, it lacks a great deal of tactical element. I have a suggestion. So, you know, going back to it, yeah, we're in a great place. We've got acro, we've got parakites, which are another world, mini wings, some of the mini wing flying that I watched the those doing loops down those gullies and stuff. Yeah, I think we're in the golden era, aren't we? I think I think we'll look back as old men. So yeah, that that's the golden area era. But hopefully better things are going to come. Hopefully better things are going to come. I was going to quip in with the suggestion that if your romance has changed from chasing

mountain thermals to flatland then you might consider moving to beer because that is one place which offers it all. You know, got the mightiest of the ranges and then fair bit of flatlands in front so and good food you know. Don't forget that. I, I've been to beer and I scared myself on beer and I'm, I scared myself by going over the bat and I was quickly in an area of where I felt so overwhelmed, so small. And so I'll equipped to deal with having to land in those conditions. You know, in fact, I actually got properly scared one of the last times I got properly scared in the air flying in those

mountains. I have a deep respect for those big mountains and a lack of mountaineering ability. So I always feel, I always feel like I'm, I shouldn't be there. Every time I was there, I, I felt like I shouldn't be there. Oh. Damn, that's deep. Well, you can only do what you're what you're equipped to do with. You know what, if you're flying in big, big mountains with no roads, no landings, you better be a Mountaineer, you know, toy, you know, Johnny Sylvan, Johnny Sylvan, those guys that, that, that forged those routes and Antoine Jabbar and the guys that are doing that, they know what they're doing. You know, they've got the skills

to be able to deal with it going wrong. They, they've got the skills to be able to get them off a crevasse, get them off a, get them off a, you know, a glacier or something. I, I'm from Croydon. I I don't have those skills. This know thyself. Know thyself as better as you can, Russ. But you know what? I was going to say that this episode is like giving me goosebumps in a figurative way, because figurative matter because I I have delayed like for the audience members to just to let them know I I've wanted to have Russ on the show since the beginning of me starting

paragliding Atlas and then something in me just said that, you know, wait until you're worthy of having someone of his teacher. And now I finally felt ready to do invite you and stuff. And I'm I'm so glad the way we are having this conversation, like everything feels like in a flow, at least for me as a host, because there were a bunch of topics that I've listed and to be honest, I was a bit nervous before going in. I was like, how am I going to make them sound natural and how I'm going to talk upon them without stammering or, you know, without kind of hitting a

roadblock. But the way all the previous episodes have kind of come together as well. And you know, the latest one being you mentioning the, the, the acro team, like we even had Raul Rodriguez on the show back in the day. So like we have been mentioning of all of these pilots that we have had. And I, I think I'm going to make a list of all of these mentions in the show notes. So anybody who's listening to this gem of a production can refer back to them and like, you know, absorb all the awesomeness that you guys create. Well, one thing that I, I missed out on and I was kind of finding

it hard to know where to start that because like, of course, you know, we are way beyond the time that, and you're very kind to not mention it. But the, the, the thing that I was kind of curious was about energies. I'm a firm believer that places have energies. I'll, I'll, I'll explain it in, in, in a certain context that, for example, you go to a rave, a forest rave, that place has energy. There's a bunch of people chasing the same goal, the same, you know, mindset in the same zone. You go to a temple, you go to a place of worship. That place has its own energy.

Does gaggle also have energy? Like you said, beer, You know, you, you felt a very like inner voice saying that yes, this is how you should be feeling right now. So I believe flying has a lot of energy. Do you have something to say on that? It's the it's the beautiful game. There's nothing more beautiful than racing cross country with your friends and racing together. And it's something that I think it will all of all of the, the race that the competition community understand and, and and get and you know from, from all the other sports I've ever done, which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Nothing can nothing can touch racing a paraglider.

It's and I've always called it the beautiful game. It's it's for me, it's so involving and it's it's pure escapism. It's just escapism on the on on the highest level really. And, but you're doing it with friends and you're all trying to achieve the same thing. And you have a, a purpose, a flight with purpose. I think as you, when, when you're, when you're young in your flying career, you can just fly for the sake of flying. And many people only ever fly for the sake of flying. And that's great. That's fine. I, I can't do that anymore. Like the only flying I, I, I really enjoy is developing wins or racing.

I, I don't go just flying at the weekend for myself. So to me, that's, well, it's kind of pointless because I have a family and and I'd fly every day during the week. So. But no, paragliding is paragliding. Racing is a beautiful game. I don't think, you know, when you look at Formula One driving or something, I mean, they're, yeah. I mean, I know that they're superstars and they're well paid and what they do and they're very good at what they do. But I wouldn't want to do that every day, you know, just be boring going around the same track time and time again, trying to take off 4 eighths of a second somewhere or I don't

know. To me, it's as soon as you get over the excitement of the, the speed and the, and the racing, it, it becomes a little bit samey. Whereas Paraguarding it's, it's always different and it always gives you something new And it, it is just a beautiful game. And, and we're also it's cool to be part of a really beautiful community as well. We have good evening mostly. Community, I think that is what makes it fabulous and something out of the world because you have to be a bit of like an extraordinary person to chase such amazing feats super high up as a human, see that point of view and make sense of it to do

it repeatedly. And for for those of us who get a chance to make a life out of it, like holy freaking moly man, can you get any more lucky than out of the 8 billion rolling this planet? Baffles my mind. Yeah, no, I, I, yeah, you're right. And it's something I've always been very aware of and very grateful for. And especially, you know, to be born in a, in, in this period of history, you know, our grandparents couldn't have done it. And it's possible our grandchildren won't be able to do it. So I think we're we're very, very blessed to get to be where we are.

Ross, I did not like, OK, I I did like think about this before, but if you allow me, can I speak about Kiwi Johnson respectfully, if you if that's OK with you. Absolutely. Yeah, of course. I, I heard in Gavin's show, I do not remember what World Cup it was, but I, I do clearly remember that you were flying with his logo on your wing as a tribute. And I, or maybe this was jockey saying, I think he was your team leader at that time and he was giving you some radio instructions at that time. And your final glide was was almost impossible to be to be made, but you still somehow did

make it and you won. Can you tell a little bit more about that, that flight? I'm very fascinated about it. Yeah, that flight, yeah. I think in the notes you said you've got to think of a of a special flight. And I've had so many flights so it's really hard to pin one down, but that probably has to be the one. So Kiwi had an I do the logo rings at Ozone. I saw out on wings and I've known Kiwi for years, a good mate of mine and his third eye logo, which was his big wings and a little sky angler. I think we've made that wing for

him and he wanted to go. His plan was to fight for New Zealand at the World Championships and unfortunately he passed away. He before he got the opportunity to do that. So when we went to the World Championships in, in Argentina, I, I, I just got a replica made in my side. He is an extra large. I, I, I took my normal medium size and had a replica made and I took it to the world to represent Kiwi at the World Championships, the one that he wanted to go to but couldn't go to. And that particular flight was from a, from a sporting perspective, it was one of my

worst ever performances. I, I, I got stuck at the start. People were going down. It was a difficult day, like 30 or 40 people landed before the start and I managed to hang on with my fingernails but lost the whole race. The league gaggle went, were out of sight. They were long gone and I just managed to eventually get up and bimble my way around the task. And suddenly, but we got into this really good cycle with me and a couple of pilots and we got up, finally got to cloud base. It's amazing. And we, we flew over the top of the lead gaggle and it was only by our pure, well, certainly by

my pure incompetence for the rest of the earlier part of the day that I'd got myself in this situation. Had I actually been doing the right thing and being on programme, I'd have been down there with the league Daggle. But it just happened that we we're able to fly over them. And I got away from those couple of pilots and I had AI had 10K with 12:50 on a grey day with very light winds slightly up my backside. So for me it was a no brainer. And I left, I left the thermal, it wasn't particularly strong thermal, but it was like, well, I'm high enough 10 to 110 K here

we go. And with 5K to go, there was, I was, I was desperately looking for the, the landing field and I just couldn't see it. And then and then eventually it's like all it's, it's, it's really high up in your field vision. It's like there's no chance I'm going to glide there. But somehow, and I'm not, I'm not a Mystic, but I put it down to Kiwi actually, I think he was on my shoulder that day because somehow I just managed to to pull off this impossible glide. And I just kept going, kept going, kept going. And, and even with with 100 meters to go, it looked like I wasn't going to cross the line.

And I just got a little BLOB of lift about 10 meters, 15 meters off the ground, which just gave me enough height to to clear the goal line and and cruise in. So it was an amazing, amazing. I was just struck with sheer disbelief that I managed to get into goal that day and I managed to win the task by like 15 minutes or something. So it was, it was the most important task for me to probably see all that World Championships. And I think I had Kiwi on my shoulder the whole way. Yeah. And it was great to do it under his wing as well.

I still, I don't own any wing, but I still have that wing on a shelf and I've never taken it out of the bag again since the last day. It's covered in champagne and I folded it away covered in champagne and it hasn't been unfolded since. But it's it's definitely a wing that I'll that is a is a keeper for me. I like could not have like, you know, there's there's no better tribute than that and talking about energies, yes man, that's like nothing but special good energies coming your way. That's. Yeah, well, that was Kiwi for me. Kiwi was, you know, it was good friend and one of the the very special.

You go through life and you meet some special people. And for me personally, Kiwi was was one of them. And I think you know what happened again. And Bill was a really big part of the success of the recruitment finding him and the amount of people that Kiwi touched in his life, I think was testament to the man that he was. You know, he had friends in many different circles. And so many people came out to, to celebrate Kiwi as a, as a given beer. And I think that's just testament to the man that he was. I think he just touched my show with his presence, so he's still making the positive impact.

Wow, that's such a good. Honour yeah. I mean, if you just need to go back and you just need to go back and read some of the stuff that he wrote, he's a fantastic writer and he's written loads of good books as well. And definitely worth checking it out. I can, I can take some links and put them in the show notes for anybody in the audience who's curious because, yeah, I wasn't a podcaster back then. But I think this is one way that I can be a part of that legacy in one way or the other for the future generations to refer back to. Russ, I'm lost for words. There's no one single episode

that can do justice to a pilot of your stature. You know this is. I don't, I think, you know, I think, yeah. I mean, there's we all just do what we can do throughout life, you know, And I'm not a special pilot in any way. I've just sort of dedicated my life to it. I mean, good things have happened to me. Fortunate doors have opened. And I've always liked with fly, I take the path of least resistance and things have worked out OK. And and I think, you know, flying is, is is is such a beautiful sport. It's taught, it teaches us so many things. And I think we can all grow as

humans through flying. And I think the most, especially in modern society where we always default and tend to blame other people for things that happen, it's not their fault. I think paragliding teaches you responsibility. It's self responsibility. You're when you take off, when you clip into your harness, responsibility, responsibility comes down to you and nobody else. And it's, we're fortunate, you know, to be able to, to have that responsibility in certainly in the Western society, we're, we're, we're so wrapped in cotton wool, especially the way we bring up our kids these days. And it's something I've done with my kids. I've wrapped my kids in more

cotton wool, like, like everyone else. But I've always insisted that they take responsibility for their own actions. And when something happens, it's their responsibility in one way or another. And having ownership over responsibility, I think is, is really important. And that's certainly one of the biggest lessons that Paragon has taught me.

I think recognising that is such a special place to be where you it's quite a blessing to be able to recognise that and then be aware of it and I think you put it in. Such a good, I mean, I mean, that's why, you know, there's, there's yeah, we're we're free to go and kill ourselves, you know, flying paragraphs. And that's there's a beauty in that when, when we're in such a controlled society, but we're, we're still free flying. And and that's what I love about paragliding is that is the old is the old theory of free flight. And just it's, it's not. It is literally free flying. And, and that's why there was

that's the beauty of the open class. That's the beauty of the the kind of no rules off you go is free flying. And I hope we find the right balance going forward with, you know, the, the, the, the rules that are coming in for the sake of safety, for the sake of fairness. I hope as we go forward that we don't over focus on safety and over focus on fairness and means the the core value of what free flying is, you know, you know, hopefully we will have enough wisdom to be able to make the right decisions collectively to go forward and make the sport better. I think if the intent is good,

everything else falls into place and that is one thing that is. Yeah, yeah. But the, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and if you go too far, you can end up in a in a situation where the paragon competitions become less attractive for the masses. I think we just have to take it step by step and not be too radical at this stage. Wasn't going to be, wasn't preparing to ask this question, Russ. But some things that we need to be careful of as a community, of course, like rubbing each other off in in a wrong sense is definitely one of them. But you know what are the major

things that will help us move forward as a unit rather than as one man armies as we have done sometimes in the past? I think it's, I think it's, I think it's exactly that. It's recognizing that you know what, what is good for you personally is not necessarily what's good for the whole sport. And I think, you know, when the whole pilot union thing started out, it seems to me just a lot of people shouting about what was best for them. And, you know, like the the equalizers debate really showed where, you know, all the little people wanted the equalizers and all the big people didn't want

the equalizers, you know, and those in the middle were just like, oh, I'm not sure. And so, yeah, I think, I think it's about defining what's good for the sport, where we want to go, how what we want to change and also understanding the limitations. Like Bill was saying on your show, you know, paragliding is dangerous and it and we can't get away from that. We'll never get away from that. There is an inherent danger to what we do. It doesn't suffer mistakes. It doesn't doesn't suffer fools. It doesn't suffer messing up your take off. It doesn't suffer messing up your landing or pushing too low

round the corner that you don't know what's around there. You know, it's, it always comes down to the decisions that we make as pirates, which is probably not the most critical factor than the equipment itself or the task setting or all the other aspects that do play a role. But they will never become more important than the decision process that the pilot makes. So I think as long as we all go forward thinking about what is best for the sport rather than what's best for yourself personally, I think it's probably the best way to to think about it. And even throughout, you know, the debates, what I've what,

what shines through really is, even though there's some disagreements and there's, there's, you know, some rather nasty comments and, and the like, what shines through is, is a, a sort of Verity that of what people believe is best for the sport. So I think, I think we're in good hands. I think, I think there's enough good brains and big people to that care about our sport enough to be able to to guide it in the right direction. I think basically looking out for greater good than just self good as the essence of finding success in life. This thing was kind of a bit of an alien to me because

emigrating to a whole different ecosystem means that you are more or less fending for yourself a lot of times. There's no backup, there's no safety net, there's no there's no team. You leave your team behind and you're looking to build up a new team. So the lone wolf theory is kind of applicable for a certain stage, but then it's like being a lone wolf, no matter how empowering or liberating or free will only get you so far and eventually tribe is your way to go forward. And that's why I kind of built up paragliding Atlas because I was like, yes, I have my own goals and priorities that I want

to accomplish in the community. But somehow changing that perspective to how can I serve the community just gave me endless ideas and starting the show was one of them. But even in the show, the question came back after divulging into a certain topic and that's OK. Now how do I find new topics? So I was like, OK, let's go back to the same thought process that I had at the time of starting the show that what does community want to know more? So like the power of looking out for a greater good more than yourself is so limitless, is so empowering that it has a chance

to create positive ripples which will be amplified. And that is how the world goes around, in my opinion. Totally. And, and you know, we're like you say with the, you know, our sport is the, it's such an individual sport. But what it does is it brings together individually minded people who often can collectively actually be very strong. So we're, we're, we're, we're blessed to have a good community. Russ, I want to close, but I want to close on the topic of MBE because I think that is one of the highest recognitions that a pilot has ever received in our community. British Order of I didn't even

know what had existed until it it it was bestowed upon you. Closing comments How did it happen and what is it? We are. Well, I'll tell you a story about an NBA. Is this, as my nephews called it, a major Bell end? One more time. Actually, he's a major bell end. Bell end. I won't explain what bell ending. I won't explain explain what Bell ending? Seems like a British mantra. Google it up people. Google it up. You'll find an answer which I do it. Means a member of the British Empire is what it means and it's a honour that's given by the royal family to to individuals that are that that people apply

for. I, I was, I was at a super final. I was at a super final in Mexico a few years back and I, and just before taking off, I got a telephone call from Sebastian Mark one calling on behalf of King Charles the third or something like that, asking, asking whether I would accept an MBA. This was after winning the world championship. And I was actually in two moments because because I'm, I'm, I'm deeply republican, in my opinion, republican from a British sense of being queen of anti royal family, which I had been for my whole life. My father, my parents, they're, they're absolute royal beasts. They love it.

So there was a there was a kind of moment where I was like, I was really wanted to say no, but for my parents sake, I, I, I, I accepted it. And that was that very same day, that very same day in the World Cup. I was I got the little lead. I got the little lead on everyone just coming into the to goal and we still need it. We had to go back to the three kings. Those of you know, via the Bravo, we'll know the three kings. We had to we were coming from the flats in front. I just had to get one climb at

the three kings. Bang and I've won the task and I even said to myself come on Ogden NBE. I even said that to myself as I was pushing on to get the last climb and I get to the 3 kings. I'm not in psycho and honour. And the others came over a few minutes later and and and and smoked me and I was so annoyed that I even left a bit low and ended up landing in a tree. It was from hero to 0. But the whole experience of the NBA was, was, was really good. Yeah, we went, we went to Windsor Palace and I, I was, I

was given a, a, the we had to buy a suit and shoes and a tie and everything. I had nothing like that. And so it was. But it was a great day for the, for the family and I, yeah, an honour, an honour to have. But I'm not the first in the British paragliding community because Judy Ledon was also MBA and I think there was another pilot who also has an MBA and but yeah, no, it wasn't on that. I mean, it's made my my parents very proud. I can imagine. I'd like to everybody else who flies as well, it's like the first thing is like the British

family follows paragliding that closely. That's kind of cool. Well, I, I was, I was given it by Princess Anne, who's the, the sister of the, the king. And she, I think she must have been briefed because she was really up to, to score on, on how the Brit team won the World Championships and that we were in Argentina and all of these. She was like, I was actually really impressed with the with what she knew about paragliding, actually.

But yeah, I don't, I don't think any of them have ever done it. Well, it's never too late to start. Maybe you should tell them next time you get a chance to interact. So but what was it? Is it a scroll? Is it a medal? Like how the how does the physical thing look like? It's, it's a, it's a little medal, yeah. It's a little medal, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, it was a silver. A silver medal, yeah. Yeah. Great. But it doesn't. It doesn't give me any. It doesn't give me any benefits or anything like that. It doesn't. Come on, Ross, you got bragging rights for life. That's kind of cool.

Yeah, it's, it's actually not something I talk about, to be honest. Some people write it after their name and stuff. I I don't do any of. That can I write it in the in the show title, you know? Do you have to? Yeah, I love your house. No, no, if. If I've got a choice then I'll say no. Well, fair enough. Now people know why I did not because I was so tempted. It would look kind of cool. Cross country did, actually, they they did, right? Russell didn't have. To be Yeah, they did, Yeah. Yeah. It helps with the Google. I I had to, I had to renew my,

you can actually put it on your passport and I had to renew my passport recently and I was like, no, no, no, don't be a prick. So I didn't, I didn't put it on there. I mean, yeah, but like I was going to say, like you haven't you been living in France long enough to get a French passport? Are you still renewing the visas after Brexit? Every now and. Then no, we, we, we have our, we have our own permanent residency here. My, my kids have dual nationality. But well, it's me and my wife are still British. Yeah, I mean, tell me about visas. I go through the pain every

single year to survive in this side of the world, but it's kind of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Russ, as I said this has been beyond words. A huge honour, pleasure and fascinating to have you on the show. Long time coming but could not have come at a better time. So you know from the bottom of my heart, no matter how how much I want to keep going, I would like let's call it a day for now and until next time, can't wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you very much.