The Inside Story of Sports Racing Series (SRS) by Brett Janaway

We came up with the concept of the SRS back in 2012, two 1013, a few of his organisers just chatting over a beer and hey, why don't we just link our events together and make a series. It's quite a complicated formula actually, the SRS. Suddenly on the face of it, it's a sports competition, but it's got a lot of different dynamics. You've got to be really careful that what we do in competitions doesn't destroy the bigger sport outside. And if you start getting hot, the NCS produced. How does the general pilot know that this one's intended for racing and this one's intended for cross country? The B category that it's now to be split by the end, it's going

to be low B, high B2 liners just collapse less. That's it. That's generalized inks, but 95% of 2 liners are put solid wings that don't collapse, however.

Hello and welcome back to Paragliding Actors. I'm your host, Aninder Singh, and joining us today is a man who promises to make racing fun. I mean, it's exciting for sure and has remained so for past few decades or, or something like that. But when the fun factor from free flight is discussed, it often doesn't transcend as well as it does in other aspects of the sports. But in paragliding, racing has been the constant topic of discussion, and Brett seems to be somebody who has come in with a whole new setup of ideas, and they seem to be working super well. So I thought, why not reach out

to Brett and ask him that? How did he manage to bring all of this awesomeness in the place where seriousness was celebrated for far too long? I believe. Welcome to the show, Red. Nice to have you here. Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Just before we pressed recording, you were talking about introductions and how we're going to manage it. Did I come close to what your expectations were? Or? I mean, I'm still a work in progress. OK, I'm not going to lie. Oh, that's, that was fine. It was a good intro. I mean, I don't know, I can expand on more. I mean, you mentioned the fun there.

I think the fun for me, I mean I've been organising competitions since 2001, I think was the first one I put together. But actually I was taught by a guy, an old chap now, but in the UK, he used to run an accuracy competition on airfield and I went along just to get a tow rating. That's all I wanted. And I got sucked in to this competing on the airfield. And he had this competition in the winter. 100 people would come. And at the end of it all, every single person got a prize. It started with a big prize, a table full of prizes and a big prize in the middle.

And then lots of little things. And you just walked up. If you were last, sorry, if you're first, you got the best thing on the table. And if you were last, you got what's left and everybody got something. And for me, it was such a new concept that we always say everyone's a winner, but that really was a way of including everybody and keeping it fun. And it's always funny how everyone avoided the big prize, you know, quite a lot of people before someone actually took it. So yeah, fun comps, that's that's where I started. And that's what I've tried to maintain in all of the events that we've organised over the

years. Yeah. Geez, I, I, I want to go on so many tangents right away, you know, with, with the examples that you've given me. But yeah, The thing is you have been in the game for more than three decades or so. I think you've, you've flown yourself all sorts of wings like hang gliders, paragliders. And then you've gone on to the role of an administrator behind the scenes more or less, where you have worked in designing the comps for some of the biggest names in the Spode, running them successfully, and then finally racing at the elite level yourself. You know, like you've flown triple C's in some of the most toughest known competitions to

the world of paragliding. But the bottom line is you have done something which gives back to the community in probably a much more rewarding manner than all of this. My question to you is that is this where you finally feel content or is the hunger going to finally keep on evolving in in more time to come? And all of us can stay excited with the offerings that Brett Janoway has on the. Table Well, yeah, the hunger, that's a good question. I mean, I, I mean, as many of you know, I I was the gym wide open. We started in 2013, which was all about a fun, accessible competition.

We've done others since then. I still run the Navata Open each year, which again, it's education and fun, but the fun is along there with any other word that we want to put into these. I tend to keep them as five year projects when I can because for me you just, it can get stale after that. So yeah, projects define them, keep them sensible and keep them, keep the idea moving. Five years is a little restrictive maybe for sports racing series, which I'm now behind with a team. So yeah, maybe I'll do that one for 10 years, but for sure someone else will take it on after me as all the other

projects are still ongoing with other people leading there. But yeah, The hunger's still there. I don't know what the next idea. Is I love it. Sometimes they say ignorance is a bliss. And maybe that is the way to let creative things unfold, you know, because if you plan creativity too much, then you're going against the whole. But tell me something, Brett, as as I started in the beginning, you know, when I was kind of telling the audience the whole idea about this competing is usually celebrating human excellence. And when humans want to perform better than others, they are exerting forces which are not that pleasant. So be it Olympics, be it F1, be it like any other place where we

put humans against humans and gauge their performance. It's a very emotion intensive thing and not everybody is out there for a laugh. But SRS seems to challenge that pretty successfully where people are not just coming in to stand on the podium, they're coming in for the community, they're coming in for the laughs. And yet at the same time, they do take whatever amount of bragging rights they want to with them at home saying that, yeah, we raced and we reached so far. So how did this whole concept of people still being happy even after not standing on the podium come to you? And how was the early adoption

like? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, the SRS, it's, it's quite a complicated formula actually. The SRS in on the face of it, it's a sports competition, but it's got a lot of different dynamics. So we had to very, very carefully balance. So it is elitist. We are looking for the best sports pilot in the world and the pilots we're attracting, we've got several top 100 in world pilots competing. So that's been achieved in the WPS system. Yeah. But at the same time, we wanted accessible, open so that everybody can try and get in and have an opportunity. And that's pretty hard, balancing 2 extremes into one

series, especially the racing series. And so, yeah, I mean, we've designed it so there's many events in the year. So 6 for the coming season, we're trying to spread it around the world a little so that lots of nationalities get an opportunity. But at the same time, to win the series, you don't have to fly the whole series. You just have to fly in two events and that can maximize your season's score. So in that sense, we're trying to balance a lot of things. And then for the fun aspects, I think that will slowly decline over the years. It is a racing series and it gets more serious each year. We'll obviously work hard to

maintain it, but as as the level goes up, it will get more focused on winning. And then but for the pilots as well at the moment and long term, I hope they will just keep realizing in the SRS that you're not really winning, racing it to win it necessarily. Realistically, there's only 20, let's be generous, 20 pilots in there that have a chance of standing on the top. And really it's about any competition. It's about challenging yourself, but it's very hard to fight against yourself. You're looking around at other people like yourself. So for that, I'm in my personal competing. I just pull out people that are just slightly better than me and

that's who I try and beat. And then when I beat them, if I beat them. That's your own podium. Pull out someone's slightly better. So that's just setting realistic targets for yourself and as long as you keep your targets realistic and achievable, then that leads to success, which is more success and and you'll enjoy the ride on the way. That's what I try and apply to myself and to the series really is just creating that opportunity for them. That's that's so well said, man. I love it. Maybe we'll include that in the trailer, Brett. We often look to motorsport. I don't know how this thing came became the norm, but a lot of

times when difficult questions have been raised, some of the biggest names have said, look at F1 and if they can do it, so can we. And I agree, you should believe in doing better. And you have to look for inspiration from people who have been there, done that and have like, you know, gone on to reap the rewards. I have. And I'm pretty sure a lot of people in in the audience also wonder about this. And guys, you can let us know in the comments section below if, if this is something that you resonate with. Le Mans has has been quite a good example of celebrating

human excellence when it came comes to driving on four wheels. And the format of Le Mans for people. I, I don't know if I'm saying it correctly in in French pronunciation or what, but the format of Le Mans is that it's a racing series where cars of all powers or different powers race on the same track over a period of 24 hours. So you can have something like F1 and something like motocross chasing the same glory but in different classes, but the track is the same, the organization is the same, the whole blanket overall is one single thing. Can we follow something similar in paragliding and make it rewarding for everyone at their

eat every level and yet not over pressurize the organisers to come up with 100 different solutions in a market which is anyway is very hard to navigate in in the cash flow that we have? My own leads to several interesting aspects. Really. I mean, Formula One is what we often see quoted. I even quoted myself occasionally, but I think for me, when I reference something like that, the key take away is how the organization should be the one setting the rules, and then the racers have to adapt to those rules that are available. You need a very focused vision for the vision to succeed. At the same time, the SRS is another good example of we're

not the best, we're not the world's. The customers won't come anyway. We have to appeal for them to come. So you've got to create something that is not just super focused, but something they want, a World Championships. Everyone wants to be the world champion. Doesn't matter what you present as the format, they will come because it's the only way to get a champion at a third event. They've got other options. You've got to deliver what the customer wants. So that helps give us, gives us the balance there and then to allow it to be accessible by literally everybody at all levels. That's where it gets complicated

again. And so you can look at something like let's take a fun event, you know, the Naviter Open, they're all fairly new to competitions and so they're all a similar level. So if I set a 50K task, it's achievable by the wall and they'll learn something and we'll debrief later. But if you settle, World Championships or PwC is probably an even better example. Set APWC a super final, you can set a hundred KA150K and they can all do it and they can all do it safely. They will race together, but a national competition is arguably the most dangerous because you've got the national champion flying against somebody in his first ever event and how can you

balance an equal opportunity for them both that they both enjoy doing and neither get scared doing? And that's difficult. So, umm, yeah, it's a bit. For the same task to be available to all levels is super difficult. You've got to target your audience. I, I think what, what I want to bring in here is that past few months or so, like since the civil resign, and I know that, you know, we've been divulging into this far too often. Paragliding is much more than just racing elite levels, but somehow the trickle down effects will eventually have some after effects, which the beginner levels will see. So that's why I want to talk

about this. The bottom line is that everybody wants to encourage inclusivity. Like nobody wants anyone to feel left out. The organisers are a handful of people. They're a wonderful set of people who are saying that regardless of what, however little the reward is, we will still go out and make it fun for someone else and not for the sake of money. That like first of all, that thought itself is, is quite noble and anybody who has that should be encouraged. So the point is that a lot of people do not have time or the resources to fly. The amount of hours it takes to be current to finish the tasks

safely. Let you know, let me generalize it that way. I don't want to pinpoint. So please do not quote me on that to any of the audience members who are listening. But the point that I'm trying to make is that people want inclusivity, yet people want excitement. If we have something like Le Mans where everybody is included to be at the start line, they get to rub shoulders with top of the line pilots in the world. They get the social aspect of it. And when the race begins, the ones at the highest level, the ones at the Formula One level, can still go out and chase

excellence as they do because they have the skills and everything for it. But whereas the everyone else who comes in for the beers and the friends can go bomb out together and just start doing it a whole lot earlier in the day, then wait for the leaders to come back. So inclusivity is 1 solution that has been given by combining multiple formats, reducing the pressure on the organisers and yet making it not a taboo to be out of place when it comes to chasing excellence. That is why is that a viable solution or is it like, Nah, man, because of the survivability becomes a question, then it's like, yeah,

we we can't have similar things. Yeah. Well, I think that just just comes back where I was a moment ago. Really though, is if you audience in front of you isn't within a similar level, it gets very different, difficult to maintain that safety throughout. It's so, you know, inclusivity is great as best as we can. And, and of course that can apply to many things. I'm talking about pilots, relevant experience and skills at that time in that particular contents. Other things like lighter differences and all that, That's another big topic, huge topic, which again the SRS addresses by saying that's the class you're flying in this event.

But yeah, I don't know, it's complicated and the sport is even more complicated. It's an incredibly dangerous sport. We do, especially when you bring in racing. People are chasing like crazy with a red mist to win a €20 trophy. And trust me, no one will remember your name next week. I bet most people can't even name the current world champion, let alone the person who won the national event. So the red mist cuts in, We've got to be careful. And so we've got a very dangerous event where we have a sport where we've got no money, we can't, we're not spending 5,000,010 million per race that they are in Formula One.

And we've been run by volunteers by virtually everybody. That's a super hard mix. And that really comes down to as a pilot, you've got to remember this and take responsibility a lot of the time yourself. I mean, we would keep moving forward to the sport. I think safety will keep moving forwards the SRS. That was one of the key aspects from the start is for carefully managing the safety as I do at all my events. But it's a big dynamic and we're trying to balance it with a poor man's sport. No, no, no, no. No, I'm going to reiterate that and and fine, you know, nobody will quote you on it, don't

worry. But the point is Bill Hughes made a very important statement on the last episode where he said that eventually the solution is to bring in more money. That means you have more people to hire which are more professional and you have like other things which can be included to make the whole package more attractive. But let's say, how does commercialisation usually work? The commercialisation is spearheaded by media. So we are in a sport which is dominated by the age group of 40 plus. OK, teenagers do creep in, I'm not going to lie. Like there are some people like Baptiste and a lot of other Frenchies who take up the youngster flag and fly it super

high, super well. But it's only a handful of, you know, percentage when we look at the overall picture, even the consumers of this podcast, when I look at my analytics, it's like we are one person who are under 18 and maybe like 3 or 4 who are up to 25. And then 40 to 60 comes from between the age group of 40 to 60. So usually when you reach that stage in life at the age of 40 to 60, you are fairly financially well off. You know, you're either paying mortgages or you have responsibilities and then you have some hobbies which take your time, energy and effort up to a point.

But none of these guys who are making the chunk of the Flyers are willing to go out and make pretty Instagram stories or whatever is the norm of media interaction. The youngsters who are finding it easy to jump onto these trends are finding other ways to stay excited in their life than have paragliding. So are we seeing a bit of a disconnect where generational age gap is kind of causing things to, you know, eventually die out because a 40 year old pilot, when he starts, still has a bit of motivation? Or like when a person is 40, but when they reach 5060, they're like, you know what, dude, I've done it enough and now I have

better things to do in life. So even though there is a maturity of two decades in the sport, a lot of interesting storytelling, it never reaches the intended audience because the person who's telling them is running out of steam and has got better things to do. So youth, money, attractive ability and media, is all of this the reason why we are losing out? I mean, I'm the the team manager for the juniors in the UK. The junior team now have a World Championships for them and for sure half of that team, more than half of that team has come from a background of the sport. The parents or close relatives are from the sport themselves,

so they've naturally gravitated to the sport. But I think for outside new people it's too frustrating a sport. For the young, it's you've got to wait for the weather to be right. You need thousands to buy your first equipment and if you want to go into competitions you need thousands every year to replace that kid to travel to the events. You know, one week in Colombia for European, you've blown €1000 on the flight alone and now you're at the mercy of seven tasks to produce a result on. So yeah, for the young, I think it's difficult. I think Russ Ogden, speaking to him recently, he sums it up very well that pilots don't peak

until they're about 35. So we've got some really good juniors in this world at the moment, but they will keep coping better. And 35, he believes, is about the peak. And after that, you can, you start to decline, not necessarily that fast. I think there's a lot of people in their 50s still flying extremely well. But the point is when you hit your 40s, you become more patient and accepting of those things around you. And you'll wait for the weather. And you'll have the money to travel somewhere better.

Jeez man I'm 35, got me thinking that shit are my best flying days behind me if this comes from Russell.

For for the extreme end, I mean honor honoring has to be one of the best pilots that we've seen in the sport ever. And he, I mean, he, I can't be exactly his background, but he in France as an opportunity to take your university degrees in the sport. And so he was literally schooled in it from a very young age. Yeah. And so, yeah, he had a classic. He stands for Pekin at 30. Five, we believe. Yeah, I, I had him on the show when I started this. He was one of the he was, he was super kind to approach. I kid you not, you know he was

one of the first guests. You're a lovely guy. Yeah, and, and he mentioned his like dune soaring and I think he comes from Normandy or something. So he was doing like, yeah, putting in a lot of effort, supported with family in younger days. So definitely got a head start. That's an aside. Even on that, I think people are going on. You go to any world champion, you'll always find they're approachable, nice guys. It's a trait you have to have to get to the top. So yeah, it's. Wow, all of them good guys. Amazing. Brett, I want to come to the ENC class. EMC has been having a pivotal role in glider design, I would

say, since the beginning of it, because EMC was a stepping stone. Like it was one of the fanciest class to race or like to push your limits in for a while. And then it became a stepping stone, a transition class of some sorts before going to two liners. You know, it was like E&A is a school wing. E&B is where you go out and learn things yourself. And then ENC is where you learn how to push limits and then also learn where to hold back. Because E&D or two liners or open class or whatever it is will will be more exciting, but will be less for being for forgiving as well.

So ENC 3 liner Encs were giving people that comfort yet keeping it on the border where you can jump when you feel like. How did the two liner ideology come into ENC? Like what just happened that allowed a file to be signed which said that you can collapse the lines and EN will be OK with it. What's the history of EN going 2 lines? I mean, well, if you go back the history of the sport, I think the ENC or it's form of variations before the EN system, I think the ENC was really you're a proper paraglider, that's what most people should aspire to. And anything less than that, the

B's, the A's, they're a compromise towards more safety. They're the wings you learn on doing your skills and the D's, they were a compromise to performance. And then later the CCC is the extreme end of performance. So I see, is the wing for the majority of sport really outside competition, in particular the two liner that changed the game a lot. So that was what three years ago they appeared and it's a big change to the class. But I don't think it's necessarily a negative change. 2 liners just collapse less, that's it. And that's generalizing. There's always a bad wing somewhere in the mix, but 95% of 2 liners are good solid wings

that don't collapse. However, a three liner is probably going to be easier to sort out from most problems, not all, sometimes the two liners better. So yeah, it it's a change in the class, but I do think it's a healthy change in C and pilots should just maintain the the system of approaching it. So still go through the A's. The B's, the B category has just been, is about to be split by EN. So there'll be low B and high BI. Think that's probably next year that comes into effect. So you should treat the high B as the low C if you like and then to progress into the C's

then and just how many lines? It doesn't change too much actually that you gain the benefit of being able to use the risers to do steering. But lots of the B's have that type of system anyway, so you can still learn it in the B class. And then yeah, it's. I don't think it's such a huge change. Are you comfortable talking like what did it take for EN to, you know, start thinking in this process and finally accept because I want to kind of forecast 2 liner EN as norms change and our usual gauging of any instance is based on comparison. So right now we are being

critical or let's say we are being curious about two lines because we can compare it to three lines. But if let's say a decade down the lane, every single pilot who has originated or who has seen the sport only sees it from a two line of perspective since the beginning, then they won't have these kind of questions coming to their mind when it comes to choosing a wing. So that's why I'm wondering like what was the thought process that went into accepting 2 lines in a lower class which was a taboo for like 20 years? Or like since the open class I don't. Know I am. I don't really know actually.

I'm not so Privy to that sort of detail. And I would imagine it's a mixture of pressure from the designers and the manufacturers and the EN working with it. But, but yeah, honestly, I don't that I can't really answer. I just know as an end user I'm quite happy with what's been produced. Yeah. And it wasn't a deciding factor for the SRS existing at all. Coming we, we came up with the concept of the SRS back in 2012, two, 1013 when a few of us organisers just chatting over a beer. And hey, why wouldn't, why don't we just link our events together and make a series?

But the conclusion at the end was it won't, it might put too much pressure on the sport having a series. But once the two liner was released, that was it. We were immediately in there because A2 liner design has natural limitations as well on what a manufacturer could do to a wing. And so it was a safe time we felt to launch the series. I want to just backtrack to 2011, Brett, and I think you, you must have been chasing Gloria at that time, pushing full bar and stuff like that on, on, I don't know, open class. That was the norm before that, harnessing the power of open and strengthening the rules.

Bringing it into triple C was definitely being questioned very hard back then as well. But in the longer run, Triple C has been widely accepted, widely celebrated and we have seen new world champions being worthily crowned of the glory as the triple CBEST wing handlers of Triple C Class. The current shift that we are seeing with two liners, E&C's and the eagerness of audiences to accept that in the racing circuits, are we looking at the like a similar triple C thing where it is being sceptical that will people accept it? You know, it might not make them very responsible at making choices, but when you look at a five year plan, as you said, or

a decade down the lane, this is the underdog which will shine ahead and make sport a safer and a more fun place to be. Isn't it something similar? I history is always important when they're looking to go forwards and I mean I wasn't racing top level back in 2012 when the sport changed, but I was very much involved in the background and the, the history back then it was open Class A manufacturer could produce anything he likes the race at the the World Championships and yeah, unfortunately there was some, some 2 pilots died in the World Championships on the same task very sadly and it was a

catalyst for open class being banned. And whether that was right or wrong it's still debated. But the sport did enter what I, as a lot of people, consider quite a dark period for about 3 years. I think it was then where E&D became the racing wing. And we've got to remember competitions are still quite a small part of the sport. There's not many in this grand scheme of how many pilots are in the world, there's not many competing in competitions. And so although we're the visible part, E&D got taken over and so your natural cross country pilots were suddenly given wins much hotter than the last generation of D. So you've got to be really

careful that what we do in competitions doesn't destroy the bigger sport outside, which was the fears we had for starting the series in the sports. Now, as it is, we, the CIBL, are likely moving towards the Sports World Championships. Personally, I'm not sure that's the best thing because it will put pressure on the EN system and if you start getting hot EN CS produced, how does the general pilot know that this one's intended for racing and this one's intended for what I want to do, go cross country. So that's where we have to be very careful in designing this. At the same time though, it will

happen. I think that's a natural direction for competitions to take. You know, gliding sailplanes, they've all taken this direction many years ago. So working on the inside with it, knowing that even though I'm not necessarily completely in favour of the idea and to shape the idea with the experience. And so for that, that's where CIBL, the working group, you want to work towards this CSC definition. So CCC is you, your modern equivalent of open class. It's just very few restrictions on it really compared to open class. And CSC is your your sports competition, the civil, civil sports class, Civil, the civil sports class, Yeah. So that's the big discussions at

the moment and certainly in the short or medium term. It's not intended to replace the the main worlds, the CCC worlds. It's intended to exist alongside it and be a separate opportunity to compete in the world's. Just as high can fly as a world's or you know, juniors as a world's. It's in other worlds. But the big debate now is how do we create a safe CFC wing? And that's still ongoing. The plenary, the annual meeting where these things are put into rules, that's not till next March. So we've got four months or something to still debate this and come up with a final solution. We had the poll recently with CIBL that 2600 pilots or

something responded to. That was a very interesting survey. I would say you know. It's absolutely amazing the response rate. So we never expected that when when did it get and it gave us a question it. Never got a link to that. I was like very surprised. I'm like, I'm always on the top of things, but I never found out that there was a survey being done. If you're in the WQS system, you should have been sent a link. It might be in spam if you're not in the WQS system. Yeah. It was targeted to competition pilots that Yeah. I'm not good enough. Thank you for that.

So, yeah, I mean that was a great response and gave us some good direction, some feedback. And on that, we were proposing use the EN system because that's what everyone owns, but put some restrictions on it. So a 6.7 aspect was suggested and a speed limiter. The 6.7 aspect. It's intended to stop the manufacturer going a bit crazy and recertifying his high aspect wings into into this. The speed limiter, that's actually nothing to do with the manufacturer, that's to stop the pilot endangering himself. Without one, it's quite easy to make the wing go faster than it's supposed to go. So that's a different limitation. The feedback was interesting.

Generally there's acceptance. There was a lot of people wanted it less restrictive and an equal amount wanted it more restrictive. But anyway, the working group continues. There was a meeting yesterday where we had input of about 10 different manufacturers or 10 designers for how they feel it should go. And there's other designers expressing interest. So we'll see how that develops over the coming weeks and months, what the final proposal is. But the bottom line is for me, whatever we finalize must protect the current EN system, but at the same time it must try and be inclusive so that we don't. A super specialized CSC for me would exclude manufacturers

because it's more cost certifying them and might exclude new pilots entering the competition scene because suddenly they need a special wing. So it's like everything, it's a complicated topic. You try to balance a lot of things, but the underlying is safety. That's what it's about to launch this class properly. I, I think I want to highlight a fact where, because safety is, of course, you know, the bottom line of any activity that we do as humans, and especially when it comes to extreme adventure sports, the relevance of safety gets even more amplified. Umm, I was just thinking when it comes to aerial sports or the things we can do in the air, you

know, there's bass, there's skydiving, there's wing suiting, there's like different disciplines, speed riding and you know, whatever, acro and stuff. The only place where we are able to race humans against humans in such a large format is paragliding. Nothing else. No. No other form of entertainment in the air comes even close to it. So obviously since there are more lives at stake, more resources have to be put in and more stringent and norms, which makes sense to masses, have to be put in. But EN was a system developed quite a long time ago and we have seen that kind of system slowly lose it's relevance in in acrobatics, in parachites or in

speed wings where no matter how long manufacturers tried to stick to it or label their wings so that they could educate a certain audience, they eventually found it easier to give up and have just a loads rating and letting the buck stop with the flyer with the user of deciding. So now when the user is going out to make a purchase, they have this sense of responsibility because nothing is being spoken to them about the behaviours and characteristics. And then they gauge their own decision making accordingly. Are we looking at EN norms losing their relevance because we are trying to correct them way too much and free flight is anyways about the freedom.

And is this a sign that EN norms like this is another just another way of thinking that I'm looking at, you know, just another perspective that may be let people decide themselves and just give it a load rating, which is just a safety rating that OK, the material won't disintegrate after sort. Of I mean, that's another good question. So I mean EN first European norm, you've got to remember it's, it's got an awful lot of process to go through to come out. So yes, it's always going to be a slow process, 1-2 year cycles at best and maybe a year or Two's work towards each one. We've also got to remember we're

a broad sport. We've got everything from a man trying to walk up a mountain with a 500 gram harness to a competition pilot trying to compete with. The heavier my kit is the better because the bigger my wing is, the better I'll perform. So I'm looking for 3035 kids kilos kit. Ian's trying to cater for that entire market with a single definition. And for the majority of the sport, 80% of the pilots out there, it's spot on, it's them. But the 10% fall to lightweight and 10% for heavyweight for that example. Yeah, maybe it's not quite adapted to them, but so, and Ian is in our sport, Ian is about, you know, how well it will

recover from things, not how easy it will get into trouble. So that's also a difficult one and one can be tested to a good degree. One's quite subjective. So it's a tough time for EN to balance it. But I think that A&B, it's absolutely perfect. And new pilots, they've got the perfect system to enter. As they get more experienced they will, as they understand the the risk and the all the different aspects, they can then choose if they want to separate from them, you know, certified or uncertified harness and so on. I mean, I, I put this question to Luke and he said that the easiest way for people to make a responsible decision is to just

read what the designer says in the manual, right? Because test reports can be subjective depending upon, you know, various things that you just mentioned and also the other things that come along with it. But designer will not lie because he wants to gain trust. So if the designer says something and you can relate to it, then but again, like, you know, this is another one of those never ending points. But like the reason why I asked you this is that OK, it can be that we are focusing on how to make responsible tasks, how to make responsible competitions. But when we flip the coin, it can be how to make responsible

decisions, decisions as well as a pilot. And that brings me to the next question is that you have seen a fair bit of audience over the past competing, racing, being a part of behind the scenes and now with the sports class. And you have seen people who are investing their time, energy and money into it. They're not just there for the sake of being there. They they really want to be there. That's why they're investing so many resources. According to you, out of all of these things that you have seen, when do you think a pilot is ready to bring in a CSC class in their life?

And I'm, I'm, I'm labelling it CSC even though it hasn't been come out yet is because let's say, when is a pilot able to race 2 liners in a sports class competition so that they know that by these many hours I am doing it safely. And I'm not just doing it because five of my friends are doing it. I in a sense that's exactly the same as the questions when should I move up a rating or when should I do an SIV. And they're every person's different. We've got to 1st recognise that. And so you know when to move up a wing. My answer is when you're bored flying your current wing on full

bar all the time, you know, if you're not willing to push the bar, you're too scared to push it, you're not ready for that next level. And SIV, you know, when you're, when you're happy to throw your wing around a little, that's, you know, you've got confidence and trust in your wing, that's the time to go to SIV. But you need that basic trust before you try that. And for racing, it's it's the same. And actually it's got some variations, but it's, you know, when you're confident flying your wing in many situations with other people, that's quite a key one. Then you're ready to look to

start racing. But the racing should also be stepping stones. So find the fun comps, the sharper open and avatar open the Nivea as it is now open. Find those ones where you can have a a relaxed task, it's not too stressful on the what is set and just learn the dynamics of what a competition is about. And they will give you debriefings, they will give you lots of information through the day. Learn the dynamics because you're back at school and then from there then you can start progressing into other competitions. But on the flip side, it's not just the pilot, the organisers have to be responsible as well. So you shouldn't just be

accepting every pilot that registers and just trying to fill your comp as fast as possible. You've got to have a clear mission on what your target audience is. And you've got to be a bit hard and cruel and say, well, sorry, you're not ready for it or you are above this and you're going to corrupt what we're trying to do to the lower classes. It's both sides, the pressure and then just setting rules. And you know, the SRS in particular, we're very clear on how you get in and it's all about your past experience. You've got to show what you've done in previous comps to achieve the correct score to get

in. And we have a small wild card system for the exceptions. There's always exceptions. The reason why I ask you that is I wanted to touch upon herd mentality a bit because we all love getting validated, you know, that that's a human kind of trait. And if we see an option where we can have fun while getting validated, everybody would love to, you know, be a part of it. And I was in, in a World Cup in Macedonia earlier this year in PWCI was not racing, but I was just there to absorb the vibe. And, and I saw a pilot flying in X1. He had just bought it like 20 hours in and he was asking

people to to trim the wing for him which is like fine. Yeah you definitely should ask for expertise and help. But if you are racing with the elitist of the elite who will not flinch going full bar no matter how bad the turbulence is because they're put in the work. OK, they have they have done built up the hours and done it reached there and yet you are asking for help to make sure your glider is tuned enough a few hours before the next task. I think there is a massive shift or like a massive gap between where the ideal pilot level is and where this pilot's level was.

And I somehow feel that validation is probably the reason that makes pilots like these the decision to apply for the entry fee and be a part of it. So. So what you mentioned is that, yes, organisers should know, but should we as pilots try to hold back the validation part when it comes to racing? Because the cost that comes with it, which is very hush hush, but it's still scary, man. Like why would you want to risk something like that even when you don't know how to trim and yet you want to be with the lead gaggle or try to be with the lead gaggle? Yeah, I mean, it always comes

back to saying earlier, the pilots also have to take responsibility. It's they've got to know their limits and know what their target is that they can achieve and OK, going to APWC. Fantastic. I remember a lovely conversation in Columbia several years ago. It was my first PwC and I'm trudgering back through the field having bombed. And right next to me was one of the top pilots who just, he's in goal and winning all the time. And he was so disheartened and annoyed that, you know, wasted my entire week, all this money to travel here and this is what I'm doing and that and I'm dancing along as happy as Larry

next to him and saying this is amazing. I'm learning so much. And it's just you've got to have a bit. You've got to know what you're going for and make sure it's achievable. But you've also got to be able to change your attitude and just, you know, try and look for how you can still gain. OK, You've blown your wing, so practice something, try something new in the next task and try and take something from the week. So herd mentality that I mean, that's again another scary one for me as a task setter. It's so scary. You set a task and you you'll get challenged on some aspects and you'll no, no, no, the

pilots won't do that. They'll all go this way. It's obvious which way to go. And then a task starts and you're Oh my God, what are they doing? You can't do it that way. And it's clearly stupid, but they will all just follow. It's. Yeah, a task setting is a scary game, and herd mentality is the worst in sport. The redness drops, you chase it. You follow that arrow no matter what. And you chase the person in front of you no matter what. So you, you got to step back and look at a bigger picture. Always and yeah, competitions, even in safety, there's another dynamic I love to consider. I did 15 years of guiding, quite

intensive, lot of fly guiding for the year. And so you see a completely different spectrum of pilots, a lot of nervous pilots that don't want to fly off in foreign countries on their own. And as you go through it, all of it, it's it's, I don't know. I don't know that it's the, the lessons they've got to learn and the self-awareness they need to achieve to gain confidence to go the next step. It's it's a tough step. We've got to consider that. And I've lost the track. I was going to go down there with that now. But yeah, herd mentality, it's it's tough, tough, tough. Fair enough.

And I love it how enriching this conversation is turning out to be because the tangents that we all want to go to is like dude, this can go for hours and hours. I don't. I've been 30 years in tense on everything on this sport so. 60 minutes, that's all you have 60 minutes to tell everything that you know of but. Set me off on another tangent. All right, fair enough. Game on. Trimming. Let's do the trimming one because that's where you started trimming. I mean, yeah, a Pilot trimming is a big thing in two liners now, and it's funny that two liners go out to trim faster

than three liners ever did back in the 90s. You know, 345 centimetre change on our lines was not unusual. And you just grab them and tie your wing off to a tree and stretch them back out and off you go again. Now, 5 millimetres on your CCC wings, 5 millimetres is becoming an issue and you're measuring a lot. You know, some pilots, I know they're measuring every single competition to a trim that suits the venue they've gone to. Wow, that's, that's nutty. This pump, it's about climbing. I want it a bit slower. And this comp's about racing, I want it a bit faster. And it's talking 5 millimetre

changes, which is nutty on a wing that's that sensitive to a change anyway. But I think Russ Ogden still sums it up best for me. Are you enjoying any wings? It's flying OK well don't mess with it then just leave it. It's fine. There's nothing wrong with it if you're not having a problem and that's where 80% of us are for sure. So I'm funny I I sell a glider trim or cross country magazine SRS sell a glider trim will be made but as soon as people start asking me how to use it I'm is your wing OK? Don't play. Learn about trimming outside racing and then see higher to

racing. So yeah, it's. Another funny game, I think we fail as a community in our learning structures to make more independent when it comes to maintaining their aircraft as well. Because any good pilot, uh, I believe should be able to repair, maintain and fly their wing. Well, you know, so we do teach people how to leap off and how to circle and how to push bar, but we never teach people how to repack their reserves or how to trim their own wings or repair and all of that. Like there's a notion that let the professionals do it and pay for it. And that works well in the beginning.

I'm not going to lie. It's a safety net. Like you don't want to mess up your trash back your reserve when you're 20 hours into the sport. But I think after 100 or 20, like I think there should be ippi level. Like let's say ippi para pro 5 will only be issued to people who can repack their own shit. It it like it will filter out a lot of non serious guys and the whole idea is to make sure that people are putting themselves in situations which they're worth of handling right. Like that is the that is the bottom line of all this discussion that is going on. So if somebody has reached a

point where they are comfortable investing the time and having the patience to learn their repack or trim their glider and all of that, by that time, they are definitely comfortable investing time, energy, and whatever resources it takes to handle their wing in the air as well. And then you won't have these people running a few hours before the task, asking people to help them tempt their liars because they know the process for the past few years and they're comfortable with it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's fairpoint. I mean, I'm probably quite lucky coming from the UK. The UK was very proactive on this stuff quite early on.

So there's huge repacking sessions and zip slides and all sorts of things not related to your IPPY status maybe, but there's lots of opportunity. But it's a big world and there's a lot of countries that don't have that resource. But now it's a fairpoint. Maybe AP5 should be your, your master of, of the sport and you have this. And, and the other thing probably the UK again, is particularly good at for me is we have a coach rating. So we don't just have instructors. We actually have coaches who have skills in particular areas. And that's the area we're allowed to teach other people about. But we don't necessarily know

the whole sport. We just know have expertise, so reserve repacking, for example. But but yeah, pilots should be well, that's why I tell my son a lot. My son now he's 17, he's really getting into the competition scene. He's third generation, so he's been around it. For a generation how he has written a book yet. I think he's for him. He's going out and I see other people going, oh, that's scary what he's doing. What's he doing? Well, I don't know. I used to do that when I started and it's be playful. I keep telling him go up there and be playful with your wing, you know, push it beyond where

you're comfortable with, but obviously in the right place, at the right height, right location. Push it a little bit more and just throw it around a bit. Don't do stupid stuff and go too far, but it's been playful where you learn skills. You're in the learning zone now and those skills become the subconscious takes them on. The subconscious is most of what we do in life. But I think that you can take that straight back to things like repack in a reserve or stuff. If you're just going to sit there and on Sunday morning go out for a quick float up and down the hill on your wing.

Don't expect to suddenly jump into a PWBC and start racing you. You've got to store all the things they're taking there, all the skills as a lot of them. Yeah, true, true, 100%. But yeah, Brett, before we run out of time, because usually, you know, this is the the closing end of the section, I want to talk about SRS, man, SRS has come out like nothing seen before. And you guys are exploding in every sense, you know, with people jumping on more venues coming in and everybody talking about it and in the most fun way possible. And I know I can ask them one question which will make you

answer almost every possibility that is like, what are you doing, right? But I don't know, like please tell us a little bit about SRS and how are you guys making like managing to make it fun? Alright, well, sorry, you say it's new, but for me it's not new. It's just progression from all the early events we made. So right back 20 years, it's just putting all those lessons together. But yeah, the SRS, it's OK, I started it, but it's a team like everything. There's a good team behind it. You know, we've got Ruth and Norie Jessop who were backbone of the PwC many years, bringing all their experience, not just their skills, because they've

got some superb skills they brought in, but the experience, that's what I needed for that. And then we've got others, you know, at least who does our scoring in every single event. The point of the SRS for us is taking all the experience we have, producing something that people want to participate in. So a lot of my adventures are commercial and if I don't offer what they want, they're not going to come back to bringing out experience. In same time, the SRS is not commercial. It's a non profit. None of us can touch one cent of the profits and we can't sell the company with 0 shares. So that that was amazingly

important was the start. We, we wanted that to be very clear that we're not doing this for the money. And then yeah, at the same time we still run it as a business, a business model. So we can't make profits, but we keep creating what is needed by the sports to attract the pilots in, if that makes sense. And yeah, our guiding principles are trying to work on safety and fun. And of course we don't always get everything perfect. You never can. But we try and do it better than the others and we try and learn quickly from our lessons. So we've had one or two scary tests, but we learn that lesson

and we very quickly react. We're quite dynamic as well on how we can react and change our systems and change our rules. So that's working. At the same time, we we want it to be for the pilots. So to be in it, you have to be a member. Everyone who participates becomes members and that allows them to feedback to us to help shape the future of it. So we have an annual meeting, we take feedback direction from them. It's still early days. I mean we're three years in now, but it's still early days. Not enough people to organise it. So for sure something that we would like to do better like formal votes and things to

happen. Same time, be careful what people want. It's sometimes people have asked for things that's not necessarily realistic, which again I was just providing the direction on things. Yeah, so it's a big thing. Yes, Rs, it's bigger than we expected. Huge. We didn't expect it to change the sport. We I was confident it would succeed because my projects historically have done well and I've got a good basis. But day one we went out and Day 1 is long time before it was heard about. We involved Cross Country magazine because we wanted to get that side, the presentation correct and you know how to present. Then we took on some big partners.

We focused on people that have been in the racing world. So Ozone Gin and BGD in particular. Skywalk joined us at Advance are joining us now. So and Nivea could have been in very close contact with us even though they're not headlining up with us. And so with all that guidance and that history, that experience amongst all of those partners, I think it's just created something amazing. But I really didn't expect it to get this take. So we've got to be careful. We manage that carefully as well as we go forwards are. You guys, how many races do you have in your calendar already? The intention always was for five a year and to try and do

some outside Europe to get more opportunity. But 5 races a year doesn't mean you have to come to all 5 to win the entire series. You can do that by 10 and just two. So the right pilot, you know, Powell Tacketts has been amazing this year. He did them all, but he only had to do 2 and there's a good chance he'll win it anyway. So that's the first opportunities make it accessible. Not too committing to be a part of it. With first year we had four this year 4, but the the second year last year that was 5. Next year we're doing 6, but that's not really what we intend for long term.

That's really because there's so much pressure, there's so many organisers around the world that want to rent one, so we've had to open it up just as a one off just to let a few more in. And then 27 is going to be quite exciting because the plan is we're going to go to a Sports World Trophy. So the Super final would be a word for people to pick up from PDBC more. It's a similar concept, not super final, but the world sports. And from that we're going to just let people race in next year's series and then we'll take the top 100 or something from that. And they'll have the opportunity

to come to a one off end of season race, which will occur actually six months after the season to allow time for planning. And there'll be opportunity for some winners of each event to get automatic selection as well. So that's another good dynamic. It's quite a scary one because this is one event that does put huge pressure on the on the sports that manufacturers want them to win it. But again, we're trying to consider rules even for that. We're trying to restrict things so that manufacturer can't produce that wing just to win it. So for example, if you haven't, if the wing didn't fly in the 26

series, you can't take it to the event, which will be summer 27. You can't use a 27 wing to win the 27 and sports trophy and stuff like that. So we're, we're trying to be careful and that's the sort of things that will be much harder for things like Civ able to do with those. We're a private company, effectively the SRS. We can choose our customers and we don't just block people, but we've got flexibility. CIVL for the world's, that's difficult because CIVL or the FAI, it's a group of host nations and every nation is entitled to send its best pilots. And so the best bottom end of

the skill level might be pilots that still haven't progressed beyond sea, but it's the best pilot from that country and he's entitled to come as long as he's achieved a basic standard in WPS. So from from that aspect, it's harder for CI to be able to maintain this safety. That's something a pilot has to always understand. But we're, you know, the SRS, we're trying to be dynamic, keep it fun and keep a nice target for people. So is there a possibility that we could have something like the FAI racing? I don't know if it's FAI or whatever is the motorsport equivalent where their circuit goes 10 or 20 races in the world and there's no super final

format. It's just the drivers, the constructors championship where you collect points all throughout like is is, is this finally the first series that might evolve into something like that in in five years, 10 years time so that we can. They've already got it. It's always existed. It's the world ranking system. Yeah. You choose any event you can access in the world. You score some points and your top four form your world position. So that was no. I I meant like in the in the lower category where inclusive areas like not just, you know, restricted to people who are just racing on on on triple CS or ENDS, but like more. Also that, but that W press does

encompass the entire, you know, everybody is competing anything your first beginners comp, you still take some points into the world ranking system. You just have to find your place in there then and who you're targeting to race. There is a new aspect that will be launched. I forget. We don't know the as that date waiting on the programmers. But in the next few weeks or months or two, there'll be a sports world ranking system that will come out. So just like the main one, your top 4 events, if you're a sports wing will form your your sports world ranking. It's no, it's a filter on the W

press the same as you can click on female or you can click on Gene you and see them. But that that will make it more visible to do well in sports to give you a much easier target to achieve. But for Civ ought to actually link events together directly to make those subsets. I think that would be challenging because it comes down to a lack of volunteers and a lack of space on the calendar. The calendar is already hugely busy at the moment and next year is quite challenging for me as an organiser. You know, I'm organising the SRS series, I'm also organising 3 events for the British for our National Championships.

I've got my own personal ones in an Avatar Open, but the whole of August is effectively blocked out to us because there's two capped ones occurring for CABL and the best pilots, the Junior World Championships, the best juniors are going and juniors up to 26 years of age. So it's quite a large bunch of pilots and we've got the European Championships as the Americas will have their A, their Panams and so on. The continents get together and that sucks up the best pilots. So how can you have a serious world level competition if a big chunk of the calendar is gone? Yeah. So yeah, W Press works quite well to me.

Yeah. Well, Brett, there's a lot of work from what I, you know, in the past hour of conversation. If I condense it, the amount of effort it takes to be an organizer is often tankless a lot of times. And then on top of that, there are some things that happen like Brown's accident. And I think even you guys like lost, like he just got lost in Colombia. I believe there was a pilot which was never has he been found again or like what, what? What was the end result of that? No, unfortunately not. So yes, this is one that's happened in an SRS last year. We, we had a pilot took off in

the task and not been seen. I mean it's, it's, we can be fairly open on most aspects that happened. I don't want to put the pilot down directly too much or anything, but the basics were he took off in the task, but he wanted to fly something different to the task. He wanted to find the direction that we hadn't checked. We knew it was just jungle and no roads and no people and no phones and nothing. So we would never task that direction. We would task in the opposite direction, but he'd wanted to fly that area a bit and explore it and then probably could run back to the task at a later

stage. So we have a certain amount of tracking that. No, he's not been found unfortunately, but there was a set of circumstances after. I mean, he did land safely. We did have contact with him 2428 hours later and he was fined walking back. We got location for that. Eventually. We had pilot responsibility and as an organiser to create rules that everybody will maintain is quite difficult. We have a rule now if you take off to fly the task, we must fly the task. We mustn't divert off somewhere else. We we can't. In the old days we had open tasks where you could fly any direction. But the sport very quickly

learnt 30 years ago that that's quite dangerous, having people, someone flying 100 KS that way, someone 100 KS that way. The format now is we all stay together in a close group. I set a task as a task setter, which is guessing the weather 50 kilometres away, 3 or 4 hours from now. It's an educated guess, but it's still a guess. But as a group. Then you can radio back to the meat director while she'll fly on the task and say hang on, the conditions aren't good, this area is not safe, or the pilots are mountain terrelli on radio or in a modern system. We've got a very advanced tracker system now which we can

communicate through the trackers and we can stop the task. But if you've gone off in a different direction then it's very hard for us to allow for that. So that there's an aspect there but and that just goes out of the whole safety. It's there's no money. Most of us are not professional. I'm reasonably professional with a lot of stuff I organise, but majority events are run by a club as a one off for the year and they look for the volunteers in the club and hopefully get some experienced ones and they do the best they can as a volunteer. And it's a huge task if you've never organised or don't

organise comps very often. And that's where the pilot just has to respect that really and try and stay within the boundaries of what we're trying to do, I mean. What I was going to say is that is it all worth it even though you are like fairly well organised and professional settings, You know, I think you're doing this full time like you are the one of the most professional organizers that the sport has seen over a period of a certain time. So the rewards that come with the effort, I'm not going to say the risk that you put in, but the effort that you put in, is

it is it all somehow making sense in your head? Or does the current political scenario or general discussion is making you rethink that as an organizer, that God damn, you know, if some other people in my shoes are being put in in front and being questioned like this, then it's it's maybe good to kind of, you know, step back because a pilot is just going to come in the race, but you are the one who's going to go to repeated races year after year. We take on a lot of risk in liability potentially. So that has to be managed. We're we're good at putting out forms.

You must sign disclaimers and stuff or whatever validity they may or may not have. An organiser must to an absolute minimum, you must provide what he can and safety. So yes, we try and get ambulances or paramedics on the launch. Hopefully we managed to get countries where there's a helicopter, but actually most competitions in the world are not the country that such facilities were available. So you finally passed to understand that. But as long as we do our due diligence, you know, we've had these conversations and hopefully organizers documented. If this happens, how are we going to tackle that? Well, Pilot Fresh is over there. How we will respond to that is the procedure.

And when the radio message comes in, reacts to that. So yeah, you have to have that process in hand and have it all three disgusted and mapped out. That's where going to events that have been running for a number of years and actually helped. So we made a decision on the Narrative open many, many years ago to not keep moving around the world, to stay in the same venue year on the same dates. We built up a huge experience and every year how to make it better and handle the safety better. So that's my key, I'm going to put a reward. I don't know that it's, it's not financial reward, but for sure I

earned more 20 years ago than I do now than I do. So it's definitely not the money. And most people organising are volunteers or pretty damn close to volunteers, just expenses. But I think anyone who's organising is doing it for the fun and the enjoyment. I get so much pleasure out of seeing the opportunities and the smiles from people in goal or the lessons they're learning. I love giving talks in the evenings when I get opportunity and just passing on experience. So that's the reward for me and for a lot of the organizers for sure. That's so nice to hear. That's so nice to hear that you

look at it with, with those eyes in that direction, because I think, uh, how if your actions put smile on somebody else's face, that's nothing more meaningful and valuable than that. You know, Brett, no matter how amazing and easy you are to talk to as a person, we do have to find a time to conclude. But before I let you go, I want, I want you to, you know, leave a statement of some sort to all the young pilots, all the 10 to 20% who are less than 26 or you know, 30 years, who are wanting to experience the awesomeness of SRS in their lives. What message do you have to them

and when do you think they are ready to be a part of the SRS drive? I it's just make a plan for the future. Just map it out how you will get to your target, any target, not just the SRS. Just keep the have a number of small targets that get you to the end game. So if it's world champion, you're not going to get there instantly. First you need to take this step. Go to a competition, a learning competition, then get to something a little bit more competitive and just set up a road map for how to get there. And the most important is just

don't let the red mist drop. Just be aware. And the awareness comes from practice. So you've got to practice a lot. No matter what you do, whether it's flying or in the competition environment, just keep practicing so that they become second nature. And then you, you open yourself up to seeing more, to be more aware again what's happening around you. And that's what'll keep you, keep you going, keep you motivated, keep you enjoying it. You've got to be comfortable in it. Not too big of steps. And then, yeah, the SRS is here. It's probably aimed for the 5th competition onwards, if you like. That's usually what it takes to get the access.

And yeah, we've got some champions here. Come and meet the Champions. Love it. You'll learn a lot. Yeah, yeah, learn a lot and be a part of the game. Learn a lot. Indeed. Oh, Brett, you know what? Like honestly, I want to keep on divulging into all the tangents, but let's save something for for later when we have more data and analysis to discuss. That rose, I can come back. I don't mind another time. Yeah, yeah, maybe in one of the SRS comps. You know, it's been a long time coming. I feel like I should be a part of that tribe as well. You know, I feel left out.

I will have a gun. Apply for a wild card if you don't have the score, but don't all apply for wild cards. We have 25 every event and we only offer a few that for the right people if you need it. Indeed, indeed. So if the inner calling says SRS is your game then give it a shot because unless you try you never know there.

You go. Keep it real, keep having fun. That's the key. Keep it safe. I think I'm going to leave it out there man. This is like nothing but words of wisdom. So that's about it for a long stay tuned. Stay excited because both of these mags are just getting started. Exactly. There you go. There's lots of comps out there. We'll see you to one of them. Sounds like a friend, Brett. Have a nice time. See you around. Yeah, Take care. Cheers.