The Art of Capturing Human Flight | Jake Holland's Guide to Filming Passion Projects in Paragliding

Trying to film paragliding is kind of like trying to herd pigeons, you know, like no one's ever able to stay properly still. And the real challenge in filming is that you still need to then like go in topland on some snowy peak before your friends quickly jump out of the harness, get into the back, grab out the drone, put it up in the air and then film them. The birds are getting like pushed out of the sky, plastic bags getting blown everywhere. If you were under a paraglider in those moments, it's it's really serious. And there was a real genuine nervousness for him amongst us. And you start worrying about,

like, how are we going to launch any kind of practical rescue mission with the weather coming in? I somehow feel that sharing reality is more important than sharing just the good side. If everything goes perfectly, often it actually doesn't make for a very interesting story, so. This is interesting. There's no intro or anything so we just decided to press recording and start this episode. But I let me just welcome you for the sake of it, man. Welcome to the show. Thanks dude. Yeah, we're here. It's rolling. It is finally after a long time trying, but your background looks freaking amazing Jake. So where are you joining us from

with the Air Design Hoodie and the Monstera which we share in the background? Well, yeah, I'm just in my living room actually, so thanks for saying it looks nice, but it's yeah, kind of bit of climate going on back there probably. But yeah, just at home. It's a a slightly cloudy day out in in the Chamonix Valley, but it's actually turning into some nice light this evening. So yeah. Chamonix is like, I think, one of those words that every time an adventurer hears, there's like, you know it, that there's so many reasons to have fun in Chamonix. So how is life like in that French stammer? Yeah, you're right.

I think there is so many, I don't know. There's so many good vibes that you get about that word of definitely. And yeah, I'm fortunate enough to live here. I didn't live in Chamonix itself. Actually, I live in a small village just down the road. It's like a 12 minute drive down the road in a little village called Servos. And I guess I've been here on and off for the last decade now. Just first started coming out here for the winters and then kind of after a few years realized the summers were just as good. And then never, never really cooled anywhere else home since then.

And as you say, there's something for everyone here, whether you're someone who just likes to be in a town looking up at the mountains or going for sort of easy walks right through to, you know, highly technical albinism or very steep skiing and everything between that. And then of course, incredible paragliding. We're really lucky here for flying, actually. We get a lot of flyable days, probably more than people would expect. I'd actually say the winter is also good for flying, not necessarily so good for thermal flying, but you know, as long as it's not too windy then we've got really good lifts. I mean, with the parakites and everything coming, I think like

the options are just expanding, you know? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's really true. And I think more and more you're starting to see them popping up in in the valley. And so do you have a couple of good soaring spots as well? Not all the time, but they're quite nice when they come in. And and then how many film makers live in Chamonix? Let me ask you that question. There's there's actually quite a few get yeah, really talented film makers that live in Chamonix. Yeah, I'd say out of the films that you see popping up each year, quite a few either live in Chamonix or like, you know,

frequent visitors of the place, let's say. Is it like a place where you might bump across a big name, you know, every now and then or you see like athlete who is, I mean the big names is like nothing compared to the Olympic status in conventional sports. But in our sport like, you know, they have been legendary status and they have been doing it for a lifetime and achieved a lot. So did you see a lot of those people in in in Germany? Yeah, I think so. You definitely do. You know, you can be walking down the High Street and you'll see another famous skier like

Glenpake, or you'll see Leo, or it's just like many of the really great alpinists and skiers and legendary people either living in the town or visiting here. Sounds like a cool place. Yeah, it's, it's frequent that you see these people and kind of lucky enough to have a few of them as my friends, which is always nice to say. Yeah, it's it's a great place and it's a good vibe. Dude, I was like, we came across to have this episode on the topic of filmmaking and parametric, but I think Shamani itself can pick up a lot of, you know, the portion of the show because. Yeah, we should.

We should. We should move on from Shamani, OK. You know, I'll tell you why this thing came to my mind because I was looking at your YouTube channel before, but you know, just when I was trying to think, OK, how will we draft this show? And then I saw Magic of Freedom shot in Karakoram having the most amount of views than any other visuals which have been shot in in European geographical location or any other place. So I'm like something in Jake prompted him to put in or invest resources in a place which was further out from his home, you know, So he decided to pack his

bags and put in the effort there and then. That is his best way. His creativity has come out to his audiences so far. But if you look at back home itself, Shamani is, as you said, like you know, it's insanely beautiful. There are endless opportunities and the tribe and everything. So I'm like, we always tend to explore because I, I come from India and I have learnt in, in the Himalayas and I have, you know, flown in some of the most majestic mountain ranges known to the mankind. But then back in my head when I was starting out, I was like, man, Europe is the place to be because over there skies look

different, the features look different, you know, so somehow like we always find grass greener on the other end. And in creativity, it just comes out in in very beautiful forms, like it did in your case. Yeah, I mean, I guess objectively I, I mean, firstly, I I don't have a very big YouTube channel and I've it's not something that I've put any real big investment into probably beyond this film that you just talked about the magic freedom and. That's a humble rag people. Jake. Jake. No, honestly, if you don't agree with me then then let us know in the comments below. If that's not a hunger humble rag, you know dude, you're

closing in on 200,000 views on that video and we're talking about the sport of parallel and an average crossing 5000 is considered pretty good so. Yeah, not to say that that video hasn't done, you know, way better than I thought. And it's super fun to have read through the comments and see how much people have enjoyed that film. And I guess if, if people haven't seen that film, just so you know what we're talking about, this is a film that we made in 2023 with, with some friends in, in Pakistan out of a town called Krimabad. And it mainly focuses in on paragliding or using paragliders to access mountains for skiing

and climbing and alchemism. But just to quickly get back to your thing, I guess as my profession, I'm lucky enough to be a filmmaker. That's what I do for, for my sort of livelihood, which is a huge privilege. So the vast majority of actually anything that I would kind of consider my more professional end is never going on my own YouTube channel. You know, it's always for clients. So that's kind of why I was saying I haven't really put a huge amount of time and effort into the the YouTube channel. There's definitely stuff on there. There's some little tutorials I've kind of done of flying and skiing and bits and pieces, but

other than the magic of freedom, I wouldn't say there's anything in there that's sort of more of my professional scope. And it just so happened with that film, you know, it wasn't sponsored or anything like that, but it was very kindly helped with a grant from Kendall Mountain Film Festival, which was helped with a brand called Kailas. But there wasn't sort of like a final outlet for that in a sort of professional sense. So it just ended up going on the YouTube channel there. And that's kind of how that ended up being there. And also maybe why it's done kind of considering better than anything else I've ever put on

on YouTube. OK. So just quickly the grant plus whatever the revenue it has generated online, has it made the effort worth it? I think regardless of that Grant and what it made from revenue online by the way like that's not a lot of. Money. I didn't want to sound cheesy man, I know the meaning behind it is much more like deep and stuff but. I mean. Like just on the material is. Probably like 300, but I don't think that was ever the point of that film. The point of that film was an expression of what the title is, the magic of freedom. And I do just feel that

paragliding as a sport is incredibly magical and gives us like so much freedom, especially there in these huge mountains with paragliders. We've really been lucky enough to explore in quite extraordinary ways just with the power of the sky and get to places super fast where they would, you know, potentially take kind of a classical month long expedition and suddenly you just arrive there. And so regardless of not of any kind of monetary income or whatever, making that film is just a real passion project and something that's really close to my heart. I think the the phrase that you said, the magic of just arriving there, man, I think that is beyond words.

Captivating because moving through like Earth like we are designed to walk and OK we see wheels in our life pretty early on. We have bicycles so we are only used to moving in in a certain dimension and commercial flying. Of course you know OK as as kids you get exposed to that point of view as well. But para lighting is a whole different way of immersion man. And I think this is a question I asked you last time as well because just for the viewers to let them know we are re recording this because last time we had way too much fun and it was way too good to go on public

portals. But maybe my Patreon, maybe we can do a Patreon release on that one. So feel free to go join our Patreon channel if you want to see what goes on behind the scene and is too censored to make the real deal. So if the budgeting is kind of given complete freedom, you know, you bring in the Imax's, bring in all kinds of workforce that you need. And if you have the budget of a feature film, then how would the experience of flying be shown to the viewers so that they can feel it in the most immersive manner? Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting question because paragliding in the grand scheme of compared to

other sports, it's received quite a, you know, a very small amount of investment into filming. And that's not to say that there haven't been some larger, you know, productions because they have, you know, with like Will GAT and Gavin and these guys, they made some really amazing films over in in Canada and Alaska and stuff like that, where I feel like they did have bigger budgets to make images and stuff like that. But anyone who's a paraguiding pilot, you know, can make really beautiful visuals with the equipment that we have now, sort of these go pros or 360 cameras especially. And I think you can already

transport people to some really special places with that. I mean, to answer your question on what could be bigger, I think this production is that John Griffiths has done recently. I think it's called Into the Sky. I might have got that title wrong. I'm sorry if I have, John. That production was really interesting and fascinating, specifically on the topic that you're saying about bringing people into paragliding and see what it looks like. Because they made this full VR360 immersion video, which came out earlier this year. And the thought and the depth that team went into, to taking a viewer into really what paragliding is like and taking

them to some really amazing places, whether that being Chamonix Mont Blanc or over in, in Pakistan in the Karakoram and, and deep into the Baal Toro. And also for wing shooting. And that film's output is actually with a headset. And I've not actually seen the finished products yet for a headset, but I was involved in filming some of the behind the scenes stuff. And I think that was a really impressive effort, far beyond what anyone's done before for giving people a true sense of what paragliding might be, you know, or is like. And I'm pretty excited to put that headset on and see see where that's going. But in terms of more, I don't

know, I guess traditional sort of films that you would see on a on a screen, which are maybe a bit more accessible because not everyone has these goggles, having a bigger production to film a paragliding expedition. I mean, of course, if you were to scale up budgets a big way and you can have helicopters. Or drones. Or. Yeah, or big drains or whatever. Then you could create more impressive sort of imagery and and following them. Of OK, OK, let me simplify it. I was like Red Bull has been having pretty flexible budgets. You know, their media house is having millions of dollars worth to go on with and their ex Alps

coverage has been one of the best that the sport has ever seen. But when it comes to POV point of view immersions in that sense, somehow we are you know, regardless of the 4G5G networks being flown around across the terrain and like you know, drones being used even in agriculture and warfare and everything. But when it comes to parallel lighting coverage, somehow we are lacking unless you're saying this multi like I don't know, multi million or thousand or whatever is the budget of the production that you are talking about in VR. So when it comes to regular productions, regular productions are lacking somewhere. So is it just that because the

sport is being carried out in such a medium and logistically it is insanely difficult to do things in the air, or is it like something else which is holding the creatives back? Are you talking about more sort of like I guess not super high end productions, but sort of in the like what would you kind of compare it to that you're you're trying to? I mean, so, so let's say there is individual level productions where for example, where a person decides to put out a story and then you have like small brand aided productions, which Tom Didolo and Horatio have been kind of doing for a

while. And then you have something more organised which Red Bull exalts us. So none of these are kind of, you know, getting close to the point of where it is possible to stream the sport to an audience or bring it out in a way where something live can be narrated with live commentary or something. That's what I'm saying. I mean, of course, documentary style is, is, you know, completely different genre altogether. But otherwise, when it comes to storytelling in an immersive way, what's holding us back? Yeah. So I mean, ultimately if you compare maybe other events, which I think is what you may be getting at with these kind of live broadcast things.

So I don't know Red Pool Rampage, which is a famous mountain biking event and that's all sort of live streamed or the free ride world tour of skiing, for example. You know, it's relatively easy in comparison to just to film the side of a of a mountain and have all the technology in that one place. But the problem with paragliding and filming it is it's a highly dynamic sport where you're covering distance and as you've already said, you know, 3 dimensional ways. So I think for making live events, if you're talking about like wanting to film World Cup or something like that, yeah, it gets really difficult because

either you need other motorized aircraft like helicopters which are incredibly expensive, or you need people who are also flying on paragliders. And as we know, the trouble with flying paragliders is it's it's quite an involved sport. So trying to then film from there and follow the athletes whilst you're also thermaling and stuff. Of course it's possible and but to put that out in any kind of like very high quality capacity, I think it's a challenge just because of those dynamics involved. I'll tell you why I had that thought process, because the the VR film that you're talking about with Meta was more or less filled on a tandem rig, right? You you guys had a professional

guy piloting and then another professional holding the camera gear further below, which was fairly heavy. So I was just thinking that drive to survive series by Netflix is basically showing internal like, you know, solo battles or how the team dynamics work. And that's why it's like very captivating way to grab users attentions or viewers attentions. And if you look at any paragliding race, it is insanely full of high adrenaline and everything, you know, considering what really a pilot feels who's running for the the top spot or, or, you know, at any point in the gaggle, it's it's quite an exciting place to be as a human.

But is that like the closest we can come? You know, maybe putting on a tandem and having a professional controlling a camera and a professional controlling the wing and maybe, of course, having tandems match triple C's is going to be hard. But then, you know, having multiple set ups in multiple places, for example, let's say Crocevo, it has a very defined racing circuit. It has a very, you know, selected boundaries. And of course, you can't keep up with the triple C's all across the circuit, but you can place your cameraman in the air strategically. And then if some sort of this setup becomes more popular and revenue streams start opening

up, then maybe the World Cups or like the sport can evolve according to the telecast. Because telecast or the viewers will like, you know, decide the growth trajectory of how the races are held or how the tracks are held or so that is the only way to kind of try and fuse these two ways to make it more successful, I think. Yeah, I mean, first of all, like I just want to say I really don't know much about cross country racing. Like it's not something I've really ever done. It's not something I like particularly follow. So I'm probably not the best person to be having the conversation with AAI guess.

I mean, I think my filmmaking is much more from a documentary style of you and following like adventures and stuff. And that's that's kind of what gets me excited. I think if you wanted to make some kind of drive to survive esque style of paragliding, then of course you could. You could do that and there'll be various ways of, of, of doing it, I imagine. And like anything, it just comes down to good storytelling and, and stuff. And obviously the drive to survive, for example, that's not a live broadcast thing. That's that's made with a lot of really interesting interviews. And as you, as you said, what

makes that fascinating is much more the human element of that and seeing what goes on sort of behind the races and after the races. And I'm, I'm sure someone with the, the right passion could, could do that within paragliding racing. I think maybe the the, it's that chicken and egg situation. What came first, you know, like crowd support of motor racing versus, you know, them more people wanting to see it. And I feel like with paragliding at the moment, even if you were to make quite a high end production, is there the audience there to watch it? I don't know, maybe. I'm sure if it was done in a big

enough compelling way. But ultimately the sport of paragliding is, you know, a pretty small and and niche sport when we compare it to to the other sports that are out there. I think deep down, Jake, that is because the ones who practice it are simply too spellbound by its beauty that they just don't put in the effort of telling or like haven't found the right way to tell how beautiful it is. And the day that happens where you're really able to tell people who have not seen that way of life. I think it is it is just a market waiting. Do we have because it's a birth

time wish. Every human wishes to fly. It is something resembling with freedom, as your title suggests. And I think it's only a matter of time until somebody finds the right way to tell that story. But coming to storytelling, you know, let's let's talk about that one because the Magic of Freedom is a very self-explanatory title. I would say makes you think it makes you kind of, yeah. Visualize. So what's the, what's the back story of Magic of Freedom? I'm really keen to ask you about the logistics and how you took the shots deep down in the mountains when you were flying, like, you know, at a place where

batteries freeze pretty quickly. But from title to the red carpet, let me just put it back. How was the journey in Magic of Freedom in cargo rooms? I mean, as you say, the title is quite like self-explanatory, I guess. And it hopefully does evoke sort of some kind of emotion in people when they they read those words and maybe they want to sort of watch the film to find out what that is.

But the the passion for it, I think it just came, you know, from doing these things and then wanting to to share that with people because it does feel really special. You know, I think flying in the caricorum, I think paragliding, regardless of where you do it more or less feels really special as humans moving through that 3D space and that old age-old kind of wish of wanting to fly. You know, paragliding is without doubt a special sport. But then when you combine in sort of the majesty of huge Himalayan mountains around you, which you just incredibly sculpted and beautiful, and that opens up a whole another can of

worms and it just makes for unbelievable photos and video. I think so, yeah. I just guess it came from a wish to wanting to share that with people. I think everybody, anybody who flies is very excited to tell it to their at least close family and friends. So we all try to, you know, have our own Gopros and everybody's excited to show their closest people that, hey, look, I did this and it's so cool. But very few of us actually managed to put in the effort that goes behind doing it. So how did the post production life look for you? What was that all about? Did you outsource it?

Are you doing it yourself or what was that about? I feel like anytime you go on a trip like that, you can have goals and objectives, but you don't really know what you're going to achieve. And I mean, that film came off the back of the first film I did in Pakistan called The New Way Up, which was with Will Simmons and Fabi Bull when they made the first ascent of Gommet Tower. And again, on that trip, you know, we went to Pakistan, we brought climbing stuff, we bought skiing stuff, and we set out to see what we'd end up doing. And actually for a lot of that

first trip, we didn't have particularly great weather and it looked like we probably wouldn't get anything particularly of note done. But just at the end, the boys pulled out this, you know, really amazing expedition, I guess, of climb on the Gomit Tower. And I was lucky enough to sort of go along with them and film it and kind of thought about before we went in and after to get all the content that we needed. And we made that. And the magic of freedom was very similar. We went back to Pakistan for six weeks or something like that, maybe a little bit longer. And I just started filming stuff along and you kind of hear what

people might want to do and start shooting little interviews here and there and thinking about the scenes that you want to capture. But I wouldn't say there was a huge plan. So post production at the end of it, you know, like I think is a filmmaker, you need to be thinking a bit ahead and you need to think about the contents that you need. You need to think about where you're going to get the interviews. You need to think about what kind of shots you're going to have. But the actual story, I mean, that just unfolded entirely naturally and that was capturing it. And then at home you kind of

have all this stuff and then you got to think about the best way to put that together in a logical way. And I think in this case in a, you know, in kind of quite a nice way. We had actually way too much content because we had so many fun adventures whilst we were there. The stuff you see in that film, of course, they're all like amazing things, but for every one of those stories, there's several others and several other good flights. So in a kind of sad way, you actually have to end up chopping out a lot of stuff because you need to make something that's has kind of a thread throughout

it. And and throughout that was using paragliders to access these Himalayan peaks, whether it be for climbing or whether it be for skiing. And that's kind of the main theme, I guess throughout the throughout the film. So, yeah, I mean, budget wasn't big for that film. As I said before, I had a, a grant from Kendall Mountain Film Festival, which was funded by Kailas, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a lot of money. It wasn't enough money to pay for like the trip and all the time and all the editing. So it was sort of a project of, of passion really. But the post production I got

some help with some graphics because I'm not particularly good with, with that. And I got a little bit of help with some colour stuff, although in the end that wasn't maybe the the best. But yeah, beyond that, it was just kind of myself and the support of friends who are kind enough to watch stuff and Give your opinion. And, and and then you battle onwards and cut more out or add more in and until you have something where you finally have to stop. Normally that's because of the like a deadline. And that was the case with it was there was a deadline for the Kendall Mountain Film Festival.

So you can only go so far. I, I feel that while editing out the trailers of my podcast, because sometimes, you know, the 62nd trailers are almost taking up to a whole day to edit. You know, I'm like bringing in some transitions, some swooshes and like sounds and overlays and you know, different effects. And The thing is that you can never be fully satisfied that how good this looks because every time you go look back and you're like, oh, maybe this thing I can, I can make this look better. All right, I can make this small little change if it makes this difference. And then ultimately, as you said, that having a deadline

helps where you're like, fine, you know, now I need to stop working on this because otherwise you can always keep on making certain improvements. But yeah, man, it's it's it's an exciting, you know, the way you narrated, like I can find it very easy to relate. But what did your hardware look like? You know how many drones batteries like because these things are expensive. The the considerable amount of money goes into buying a high end action Cam and God forbid if you lose 1 in any of adventures that then you're like the motivation to invest again. Because I have sadly lost out on an insta 360 once and and it was

like I had to buy another one instantly because it was so hard to survive. But how did the hardware side of things look like for you and how did you manage all of that? Yeah, as you say this, the hardware like cameras, drones, action cameras, these things aren't cheap per SE. I think if you were to look at it from a film production point of view, if you were to look at it professionally, people would probably say is a very minimal amount of kit. So I had with me a little Sony kind of full frame hybrid camera. I think it was an A7C1 or an A7C2, I can't remember which one it was.

Three €3000 maybe ish. Yeah, probably a little less than that, I'd imagine, for the body. But that camera, you know, it's capable of making incredible images. And we live in a a real golden age for filming stuff now. Yeah, what consumers can buy, like into the 360 you could only dream of a few years back in reality. And it's the same with that little camera that I used. I mean, the quality of that sensor is, if you go back not that long ago, it's just as good as the top of the line cameras. And then, of course, lenses are important. So I probably had like a 16 to

35 with me and then this 24 to one O 5, which is a very versatile lens. I I will say like a lot. I do not understand the clue, and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of listeners who don't understand the numbers that you just said, so if you're explicit. I mean, those numbers, they're just they're focal lengths numbers. So that's how zoomed in or not zoomed in the images. So like 16 would be quite wide and 105 would be more, more tight. But yeah, I think having different lenses gives you different options for creating different visuals, whether you want to be more zoomed in on on someone and sort of like a

interview kind of portrait or having a nice wide lens to document the the amazing mountains. And then of course, you know, like a go pros and 360 cameras, they've become more and more important for shoots, especially in action shoots. You want to have a camera on someone so the audience feels immersed in into that place. And I think in paragliding, just because of the difficulties of this, of filming that sport, these kind of small action cameras are really important because you know, if you go mountain biking or something and you want to make a mountain biking film, you just walk around the woods and you get

your friends to come past you a bunch of times or come down this mountain. It's logistically, it's quite simple compared to trying to film paragliding, which is kind of like trying to herd pigeons. You know, like no one's ever able to stay properly still. And you know, everyone's moving, you're moving, you need to be concentrating on that. So I think the biggest, probably most helpful tool, at least let's say that for making the really impressive visuals was the use of a drone. So I think I had a Mavic 3, DJI Mavic 3 Pro on that shoot, which, you know, it's an incredible drone. It's not super heavy in the

grand scheme of things for climbing mountains with and having it with you. You've got probably an extra kilo and 1/2 or two kilos with extra batteries and stuff. So it's trips where weight is such an important factor. But the cool thing about that is it's much easier to chase pigeons with than it is flying a paraglider yourself. That's not to say that some of the images aren't, you know, shot from the paraglider, but I I feel like a lot of the more breathtaking images are often with the drone because you just have that much more independent control of being able to go up and down and round to the side of someone and you're much less

restricted because ultimately it's a a powered tool. And but the the the problem with the drone is it's not like simple in the sense that you can't just sit at the bottom of the mountain and film people as they fly off up to 6 or 7000 because the drone can't go that far legally not meant to fly that high. So the real challenge in filming still is that you still need to paraglide. You still need to then like go in topland on some snowy peak before your friends quickly jump out of the harness, get into the back, grab out the drone, put it up in the air and and then and

then film them. So it's an amazing tool for capturing really spellbinding images, but it's not without, you know, still the hassle and everything else. But I do think that is probably the best way that I've been able to get some of the really stunning images there in that film. I think cinemat incident, paragliding cinematography, like parallax shot, uh, I mean, you feel free to explain what parallax means to the viewers, but I think they are one of the most, uh, captivating ones where you just don't want to look away and you're so glued to the screen because of the, the scale that, you know, the way the

whole scene is unfolding in front of the audiences. And those ones can only be taken by drones because I have tried to film a fair bit. And I think in flight filming is one of the most easiest ones where you just pull out your camera, hold it in your hand, secure it with a latch like a tie somewhere and then put it back in your harness pocket or whatever is your storage. But then Parallax, where the audience feel insanely immersed, is only possible withdrawn, which has its own all new logistical. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure of the actual technical definition of parallax, but I believe parallax

is where you have a camera moving around an object and the zoom is enough that the background kind of looks like it's almost going the other way. Yeah, yeah. And I would almost argue that, you know, with things like a Mavic 3 and stuff, even that's relatively hard to make because you need a certain amount of of zoom to the images. And like most of the really incredible parallax images that you've probably seen in paragliding or where you have that kind of zoomed in background feel and you see it rushing past the screen, but the the subject is still staying right in the middle. A lot of those images would be

shot from from helicopters with like a shot over setup, kind of remote controlled gimbled camera off off of there. But I mean, what's really cool is that technology and drones and stuff, it is just getting better and better. And certainly with like bigger drains now that you can change the lenses on and stuff, these are capable of making unbelievable shots. We're talking even bigger drones and stuff, which you can definitely take up onto the mountains if you've got the kind of passion and the will to do it and you're willing to sacrifice all the extra effort. But if you're also trying to achieve something like skiing

down a mountain or whatever it might be, ultimately there is kind of a weight limit of what you can A fly with and B, then do something with. So for me, something like the Mavic 3 is at the top of that scale. But I think it's really worth bringing because it's being able to get really cool shots with it. But as you say, the the kind of easier shots. So maybe having a GoPro on a selfie stick and then turning that round and filming yourself or maybe friend nearby that. I think it's so cool how technology's evolving so fast and for smaller productions and film makers like myself, you

know, who are trying to make stuff happen without having huge monster budgets and helicopters and everything that goes with that in terms of emissions and all of that kind of stuff. We're really lucky to have the technology we have now. And I think you can still transport viewers to a pretty high level of sort of imagery. And then obviously what makes any film special is beyond the imagery. You know, it's the story that you choose to tell, it's the characters in there, and it's how you string that all together. And I think the reality is like a very good filmmaker could tell an incredible story with quite

nothing special, just an iPhone or whatever we have now. And you know, when I think back to films. Like the Birdman of Caracara or John Sylvester and I, I don't know what cameras exactly they had then, but I can guarantee that they would probably would only love to have what we have now. And you watch those films on YouTube and I don't know when they were shot, but I guess early 2000s. But the story that they tell is just incredible. And that's what makes those films so special. It doesn't actually matter about the images that much. It's just such great storytelling and it's so compelling to watch because you

see these people having these spellbinding adventures. I know I you know, I've watched this movie called A Temple in the Skies shot and beer billing, you know, by two adventurers. I'm forgetting their names. Honestly man, that footage is nothing compared to modern day outputs. But I can watch that movie more, more times than I can watch my own GoPro footage from equally stunning places, you know, But the way they tell that story and the adventures they have and the humor and, you know, like the connection of the community and everything, it's like, oh, geez, the ingredients to tell the story are super amazing in that one.

And yeah, but also Red Bull came out with the first ski descent of Mount Everest, I think a couple of weeks ago. You had a chance to watch that. I did actually see like I kind of saw glimpses of that and it's just quite, I don't know if there's different copies of that or what. But the copy that I saw, it was just kind of like a quite a raw, fairly uncut kind of feeling with lots of drone shots. And, and you just witnessed this dissent over quite a long time. Is that what you also saw? That that is the only coffee that is out there. And that is what like, to be

honest, I got like, OK, you might be looking at it from a very technical point of view, but I kill you. Too, I think it's, you know, it's like, well, I think it is very technical. I think for those images at that altitude, there's no doubt that there's a huge amount of technicality to that. Yeah. I think you could describe the storytelling as, you know, it's very linear and just very simple. It's just the uncut copy of of him skiing down off this mountain. Yeah. And it's just very pure in its form. But it's it's really cool to see, you know, something like that and see just it unfolding as it as it goes.

Yeah. It's amazing. That that's what I was saying. I was like, I was blown away with the how insanely immersive it was and I could not look away as soon as I clicked, you know, I, I ended up watching the whole 30 minutes worth of that video, which was more or less the case with your freedom of magic of freedom as well. But but yeah, like the way you can tell a story is so many, you know, variations and people have been doing it successfully in, in their own niches. Uh, like as you said, John Sylvester or temple in disguise. They had their own way and then

this, no dialogue, just breathing and visuals, shows us another way. Well, you know, one thing that makes me think a lot is that I'm fascinated by Yon Baptiste. His way of telling a story is mind blowing, man. The creativity that he shows in his videos and the way he brings you along to what he wants to share, especially his last one, which was kind of emotional because it was a tribute to his parents. But Oh my God, man, somebody, somebody said it's AI and he clarified that it's not. Instead, it's like 5 months of relentless frame by frame editing. Have you had a chance to see it?

I have seen it. Yeah, it's, yeah. It's beautiful. I mean, like all of his films, they're, they're absolutely incredible and just so well. And they're just ultimately they're very unique. Can't they? You know, they've got a lot of thought into them. They've thought heavily on the idea behind the film before shooting yet and coming up with all these incredible scenes. And the one you're talking about now is this latest one where you don't see the paraglider other than a couple of water reflections, which I think is genius. And it's just the sky sort of flying through the sky in a slightly funny position. But yeah, I mean, it's absolutely incredible.

And yeah, I can't even imagine the the editing that went into that. I'm not any great special effects or after effects kind of person. That's not the skill set that I have, unfortunately. But it's the concept behind it is just so well thought through and the execution is even more amazing. And yeah, it's a real tearjerker at the end for the kind of the the story then he's he's sharing. He's a very unique storyteller. And I think that's why his videos, you know, they transcend past the size of the audience of paragliding and they go on to a much larger audience who might not have even seen paragliding before.

And I think it is very special. And when when people are capable of doing that with these short films, because ultimately there's so much content you can watch out there on YouTube or Instagram or wherever you get your content. And his videos, I think they always pull people into our sport who might not have seen it before. I was going to say that the editing part, like when you have to, you know, take out the risers and everything else that he has that including the, I don't know the harness or whatever, but is it frame by frame that every single frame you have to go select it, remove it and then replace it.

I, you know, honestly, I don't know what the workflow was behind that. I'm not the man to ask. There's way more people who are tech savvy with that kind of level of editing, but I expect it probably is frame by frame and through it and painting stuff out.

Yeah, perhaps with AI they're able to get some help on that. I'm not sure. But clearly they had this concept and they must have tried it first quite a lot and involved the right sort of film makers and editors and After Effects people to to have made it happen. It's a very thoughtful project and it wouldn't have just been like all shot and then all edited. They would have had to have trialed it first and to come up with whatever techniques that they used to make it happen. It's like I think what would happen if Young Baptiste plus this new technology that you said was used in the Meta

project, you know, if the combination of both of these come together, man, I think the result is going to be pretty much the best thing that has happened on para lighting content creating so far. Yeah, I mean, there's always a different way to tell the story. And as I say, I've not I've not seen the the VR 360, the finished film yet. So I don't know what storytelling that they use for them. I'm sure it's very captivating and not just from the technology, but I'm sure it's great also from the the storytelling as well. But yeah, there's so many ways to tell stories and there's so

many different pieces of technology that you can evolve into them. And it's just really, it's a cool time to be alive and it's a cool time to be working as a filmmaker because you get inspired by these people that do these amazing things, you know? And tell us something about the project. Man, this seems like a very exotic project, something never seen before in the sport. So yeah, what was it? Which? The VR project. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that project was just really groundbreaking in so many ways, from speaking to John quite extensively about it at the time. Who's John? John is the director behind it,

John Griffith. He's the guy who, you know, he, he brought that whole production to life. He is kind of the guy in 360 VR Adventure sports who his first film was about going up Everest and then he did like a free solo film with Alex Honnold really, you know, like leading this charge in 360 virtual reality. He really, I would say there's probably no one else really. I mean, sorry if I'm cutting people out there, but there's, you know, there's not many people working in that space. And I think that's for several reasons that that project was just really groundbreaking because before then he had only ever worked with cameras that

were held statically. So as a viewer, when you put on the headset, you weren't moving around at all. You know, you have basically mounted to some form of tripod or pole or something like that. And then you were just sat there kind of to observe on the action. And he had said, you know, to film flying that wouldn't work because you can't film flying statically flying. The whole point of flying is that you're moving in this three-dimensional. But the problem that they had always had in this 360 VR stuff is that when you put on a headset and you start to move, that you're actually, you know,

realize you're stationary, your body doesn't like it and it makes you feel quite nauseous and sick. That can be really uncomfortable sensation. So John put in a huge amount of time and effort and investment in technology to work out how the camera could be moving but held very, what's the word on a gimbal or whatever. So there's no jerks, there's no wobbles. The horizon always stays the same and you don't suddenly speed up or you don't suddenly slow down because I think it's those forces of acceleration that you end up feeling sick. But to do that, it made the project really complicated in terms of how he needed to hold the camera when flying.

So yeah, he they had the the tandem and below the tandem there was a gimbal which was attached to a big pole or maybe it was a pole and then the gimbal and then the camera don't remember exactly which way around with the technology worked. And then various kind of like fans and motors to hold everything so it didn't wobble. But you know, when you're taking off from places that are already quite an ambitious take off for a tandem once, ever taken off from there with a tandem before and then you have this hanging bag of stuff below you, It's pretty terrifying to watch and potentially really expensive because you just have one small

crash with that stuff and then it breaks. Then you know, they're all custom made stuff. So I think the whole project was incredibly ambitious. And then where they pushed it, you know, we went and we landed up on sort of five and a half 1000 meters and camped there for the night with all those things following that story. It was just a very, very ambitious project that was already doing things with paragliders that's, you know, most people would regard as fairly cutting edge, and then having big drains along with you in this rig that I just described. So if you do have access to one of these VR headsets, whether you own one or can go to a

library or, or whatever it is, and you get to see that film, I think just bear in mind the sort of, yeah, the vision it took to bring all that together. And actually there's, there is a behind the scenes film which I was involved in in, in filming there, which doesn't show all of the things that that we did, but definitely shows some of them. And I think you get a an idea of how much work that production took. OK, the thing that makes me so curious is that operating in these hostile environments, you know, I can label it like that because releasing the brake handles and bringing out your

selfie stick itself is quite challenging a lot of times. But and having this whole rig and another person and close listening to it and another glider. What was the biggest challenge that you guys had while on this project? You know, because anything from sleeping overnight and freezing temperatures to waking up with a with a colleague with a bad mood, like, what was the time when nerves were running high on everyone? Yeah, I mean, maybe we can go back to the magic of freedom film because I feel like I can talk about that bit more freely because that was my production. So I think on any of these

projects, you're, you know, you're kind of worried about your friends and yours safety in these in these places. And ultimately you are just out on an adventure. And in the Magic of Freedom, you know, Antoine Gerard, he's one of the sort of the main protagonists of that film. He decided he was going to try to climb this mountain called Duran, which is a little bit over 7000 meters. And he was going to do it by himself. How he came to doing it by himself was I think other people had been keen, but conditions and and sort of schedules and stuff of that trip just ended up being that he he did go for it

by himself and it was ended up being I think a pretty harrowing experience for Antoine in the end. You know, he made the summit, but he was moving through terrain. That is not the safest kind of terrain to be moving, even as a roped party because of crevasses and stuff like that. But at least if you are a party of two or three people, you can be tied together. And there is techniques for what happens if you fall in a in, in into a crevasse because you have a rope on and the other people can kind of act as like an anchor and then pull you out.

But because he was by himself, yeah, there was quite a real chance that he could have fallen into a crevasse and gone a long way into it and either died from falling because some of them are, you know, like you're 70 meters deep or just fallen down and not, you know, being able to get himself out because he's fallen 10 meters. And maybe he wouldn't have been injured, but he couldn't climb out for whatever reason. And yeah, so that really was taking a lot of kind of risks by doing that summit by himself. And we lost comes with Antoine. You know, we had been in comes with him on the way up, but then

we kind of lost comes with him. And it was pretty worrying, you know, the next morning, we still weren't able to get him. And as you see in the film, the weather sort of starts to change. And there was, you know, a real genuine nervousness for him amongst us. And you start worrying about like, well, how are we going to launch any kind of practical rescue mission with the weather coming in? And in the end, he was able to take off. But I think it was kind of a pretty close thing. And he was suffering from altitude sickness and hadn't had any real sleep the night before

and stuff. And he got down just in time, which, you know, was amazing. And you know, he did manage to get himself off and he did manage with with the skill and stuff that he had said to pull it all off. But it was a close run thing because you get these huge cloud bursts come through with like large amounts of wind and stuff. And that that did come in, you know, in the film, you see it happen, feels like it happens pretty quick. And that was the reality. You know, we were then kind of like an hour of him landing. We had this huge weather storm

come in. And we're talking gusts of wind when they happen in in in that place of Koruna bad. I I wouldn't be able to give you an actual gauge. Aaron, what they are. Aaron described that even the stones on the road were rolling. It was. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that is what happens and you see it several times in a season. And when it happens, you you could look at the sky. If you arrived at the place you'd be like, oh, we could do fly now. It just looks a bit overcast, but it's actually a, you know, one or two, several big storm cells above you. And yeah, like, there's dust

blowing everywhere. Birds are getting like, pushed out of the sky, plastic bags getting blown everywhere. It's if you are under a paraglider in those moments, it's it's really serious. So yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when we are in these places that the adventure kind of comes first and the filming second because it's it's a proper adventure. And you know you're doing your best to capture what you can, but you also have to look after yourself and look after your friends. I I've seen that and I I can completely understand what you mean because I think Antoine did not even speak much when he

landed to capture his expressions or emotions because he was just like, yeah, you know, wanted to finish it. And you could feel the distress in her in his voice when he was recording that difficult night on the round. And I don't think he recorded the take off. He just recorded mid flight for the sake of it. But you know, the question that I want to ask you is, and this can probably be a message to the viewers as well. A lot of times whenever we want to portray something that we do, we hide our deepest vulnerabilities. It's, it's not comfortable bringing out our things that scare us, especially in this context when things can go

haywire pretty quickly and, and emotions can go on a sinusoidal, you know, like one time you're super high, one time you're super low. We only tend to share one side of the emotion. I somehow feel that sharing reality is more important than sharing just the good side. Don't want to put you in a spot by any means but Red Bull X Alps constantly censors their output that has been given to their audiences. Umm don't. What's your thought on this man? Like we as pilots should be sharing the reality right? Like, OK, you get to fly over the clouds, but hey, this is the price that might come with it,

so be aware. Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for Red Bull X Alps, and I have no idea what they censor or don't censor, so I can't really comment on that. I think I guess it goes with human nature. I mean, if you look at people's social media feeds or whatever, they're often filled with highlights of life and the best moments. But that's not to say that I feel like actually what social media actually often does is filters out in the middle. Because of course, when someone, when people do hurt themselves, they often do share those stories. OK, some people don't want to share an accident, and I think that's totally fine.

Like it's a very personal decision as to what you want to share. But when we scroll through a lot of social media is often the highlights of our lives. And I guess that's kind of natural. But I think there's of course value in, in sharing, you know, whatever you want to, but from a storytelling point of view. You know, if everything goes perfectly, often it actually doesn't make for a very interesting story from point of view of someone who is interested in making documentary films and stuff. You're often not looking for perfect moments. You want to capture when things don't maybe go as planned, because those are the

interesting parts. And I think in The Magic of Freedom, Antoine did give a very open and honest expression of what happened when he had just landed there. He was quite obviously, like, hard. And you could see the fear in him. And it was a really raw moment. And we had been super worried about him. And, you know, you can see how tired he is and stuff. And yeah, I guess from a film point of view, if we only capture the peak moments, then there's nothing to balance that out and there's nothing to make it show why that thing is is hard and worthy of people's attention. I think from people wanting to

make their own content, like you said, I'm not sure if it necessarily has to be, you know, these like low moments or middle moments or whatever. But I think if you want to make something that people are going to connect with, there needs to be that human element. Yeah, it's that that human element is what makes US feel things and want to connect with people. And good storytelling usually has that. Not always, but often. And I mean, there's so many different ways. And reflecting back on what you said with the Everest thing, which is just raw and cut, you know, that's very powerful in itself. But most of the time, if you

just roll with a GoPro, filming it can be really beautiful, but you don't necessarily actually connect to that experience as much as when someone's telling you about it or see the joy or the the fear or whatever it might be on on their face in those moments. That is so well said my man. I am totally satisfied with your answer and I hope the viewers out as well. I'm glad glad it helps. What are what are you planning to tell us next? Well. There's some, there's some projects in the pipeline. I can't necessarily say what they are right now, but there's, there's definitely things to come. And in a in a similar vein of

what we've already been working on because I feel like

ultimately when you really get into something and you start to love it, you invest in it and you want to do more of that. So I think there's still adventures to be had and around the world and more stories to be told with paragliders and whether they'll be successful or not, who knows. And I guess that's part of the excitement is that when you go on these expeditions and stuff like that, yeah, you don't know. But actually, I tell you what, there is going to be something coming out. I don't know exactly when. I think it's going to be soon, but it's going to be an

adventure that I was with Tom and harass you over in Tanzania. And yeah, I think people are going to enjoy that when that comes out. And I think it's going to be a little bit different how it's presented. So I can't say more than that, but yeah. Is it, is it, Is it killing again or some other? I'll just Yeah, yeah. You'll know when it comes. Yeah, yeah, I think it's going to be super exciting. But I love those point of view shots and the smoke and the the whole topography and everything. But yeah, I can see that you don't want to divulge any more secrets, so I won't make you do

that. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully get lucky enough to join some more trips and, and keep, keep getting to do these great things and, and yeah, fingers crossed there'll be some more successful stories to to share with people. Yeah, man, I'm keep coming back to paragliding apples. When you have new adventures to share, you know that's the whole point. Thank you for having me on here to talk about them. Dude, it was so natural. You know, usually I start pressing, preparing some sort of a draft to press recording and then go with it or something. But this one, I'm so glad we just spontaneously decided to press record and then it's just, I think we went on a lot of

tangents. I don't even know which all topics we covered I'll have to review now. And a few things there to get through, but I think, yeah, I mean it's in super funds, it's chat with you and that's what these things are about. Cool man, thanks for your time and looking forward to next outputs from you in whichever form they come from, so good luck. Thanks.