The Silent Mind In Screaming Winds : Unlocking Peak Focus To Attain Flow State In Paragliding

that might happen in your head with other people flying. You want to show them I'm a good pilot. And then all of these other voices come into your head. Then you might end up doing something completely out of the flow stage because you're actually thinking of other people. That ends up being stupid because you didn't actually do it for any sort of meaningful internal reasons. You did it because of what you thought other people would think of. And the thing is, the only thing that you can do then is to try to get out of your head get back into the zone, and then just allow your body to perform at its peak at that time. And then whatever happens out of

that will happen. But you'll probably find a lot of athletes do find that when they're able to do that, then they perform the best that they've ever performed. And so it's a paradox.

if you focus on the process, not the outcome. Let's say, for example, that you're on like a fitness journey and you wanna add 10 kilograms of muscle. So you go and you start doing pushups. If you immediately have this expectation and you're focusing on that 10 kilograms of muscle, even after six months of doing it, and you might not see that many results, you're gonna give up because your whole goal is that end result. If, however,

Aninder: Hello everyone and welcome back to paragliding atlas once again. Humble humble apologies for taking a month off the game. It's hard to explain, but to put it quite simply, life gets hectic, sometimes unannounced. And this time around, my excuse is that I was writing a research paper on a topic that I was not really aware of. And that just took a lot of time, energy and effort, which, of course, in turn took away the motivation from other areas in life. And as you probably would have guessed it, running a podcast, editing, publishing and scheduling interviews and everything else around it is quite a hectic ecosystem to manage so that's why i thought like if i cannot give my best shot at it i

would want to wait rather than just dish out episodes for the sake of it however as i always say bygones are bygones and we are back with an absolute banger of an episode and i know i'm hyping this up again but the whole idea behind doing so is that our episodes are getting better and better with the quality of guests that we are getting and most importantly the conversations and the depth that we are getting into it So to add on to our weekly dose of awesomeness, this time around we have Grant Smith from Down Under in South Africa. Now, I think Down Under is used for Australia, but anyways. Grant Smith from South Africa is joining us for a very holistic talk on a very intimate topic of the flow

zone. The flow that really gets you going in the moment when you're practicing whatever you want to. And to add on to a little bit of a backstory behind this episode is that Grant uploaded a really cool YouTube video, the link to which is in the show notes, by the way. So you should definitely check that out. I think it's around 7 to 10 minutes long and Han has already got some really good reviews and Grant is just spilling all the beans that the big guns have with respect to the topic of flow when they go out flying and maximizing their performance. So naturally, when I saw that video, I reached out to Grant and I was like, you know, this is a goldmine right there. And I would love to dive a little

bit deeper into these topics so that we can break down this concept in simpler and easier bits. And Grant was very kind to say, yes, let's do this. So here we are. And without spilling any more beans, I would say it is so wonderful to be back in the game again. So tune in and I hope you like it.

Grant Smith, what an absolute honor to have you on Power Gliding Atlas, sir. Welcome to the show. Amazing, man. Thanks for having me. It's a

pleasure to be here. Grant, I know you from that, can I say famous YouTube video? Because I think that has quite a few views already after its

Aninder: release, no? Yeah, it's done surprisingly well. I had very little expectations on that video, and it seems to be really resonating with

people. A lot of positive feedback, a lot of emails, a lot of messages, so it seems to be touching a chord. love it man love it and thank you so much

Aninder: for taking our time on diving a little deeper into that because obviously youtube algorithms won't support one hour long talking videos that well as a podcast would so that is the reason why you're here but before we get going grant for the knowledge of our audiences a little bit about you who are you and how did you become so awesome in life Yeah, so my name is Grant. As you've said, I live in South Africa in Cape Town,

sunny South Africa. I work as a paragliding instructor and guide and tandem pilot. But more recently and over the years, my real interest is really in paragliding coaching, especially around the mental side, the sort of the inner game of paragliding, let's call it. And yeah, I'm here. I work at a school. We have some coaching programs and I do some tandems on the side as well to supplement it. But yeah, just paragliding, paragliding all the way through. So basically living the dream, huh? Yeah, I would say so. So yeah, blessed. Oh man, that's such a

Aninder: cool place to reach in life where you're able to get out of the nine to five rat race and chase everything that you wish for with all your passion and everything around it. So well done, sir. Thank you for being one of those who show us how to do it. Yeah, I couldn't take any credit for it. This is

one of those things you put yourself into the position, but then you need to have the opportunities and the luck and the right connections and the right time for things to surface. But it's definitely something that has given me a lot in life paragliding. And I think that's where I am now is trying to find a way how to give back the amount of gifts that I've been given. So yeah, don't take credit for it, but I'm very grateful and happy that I wouldn't change it for anything. Giving back, I think, itself is such a powerful word because, and it's such an underrated one as well,

Aninder: because, of course, as we grow up, there's a little bit of capitalism and whatever it is that tells you you've got to build your assets and everything. But giving back isn't stressed upon, and especially in a sport like ours where we are not bound by any sort of expectations it's a solo sport very few people go professionally in it giving back is a concept that is not talked upon a lot but yeah how did such a thought come in your mind and what was the manifestation around it i think if that's the correct word to use it using here But really, before I spent a few

years in Sweden, and that was due to COVID and love and moving. And just before I moved to Sweden, I'd been chasing paragliding quite hard. I'd really been chasing numbers and chasing records and competition. And I started to get some sort of sense of emptiness in some way. And I've started to question like, why is this pushing? Is the risk worth it? Like, why am I really doing this? If I'm flying and I have a great flight and then I look on XC League and I see somebody's flying further than me, why do I have this feeling like it's not enough? And I really started to

question that angle of it. And then went to Sweden, struggled to find my way there in terms of connecting with the community, finding work. I did fly a little bit, but it was few and far between. And it got to a stage where I almost quit paragliding altogether. And then one day, it was about two years that I hadn't flown. It was a spring day. And I decided, no, I'm just going to go out. I'm going to go to the site and I'm just going to pull my glide out the bag. And I don't really, I don't even need to fly. I just want to ground handle this thing. And I went and did that, had a short flight.

And the following day, the conditions were really good. And I found myself in this really light lift, had no plans to go cross country. I parked my car there. I was like not going anywhere. And I had an hour and a half flight in a tiny little spot, didn't go anywhere. And it just felt so, so good. And I realized in that moment, again, I was reminded, let's say at least, of how lucky we are to just be flying and how all of the other things, there's nothing wrong with being ambitious and trying to grow yourself and set personal goals. But for me, I just realized that there

was something very beautiful and very important about that. And at the same time, I'd been doing a lot of reading and reflecting in Sweden. And I came across this concept called the infinite game. And you've got finite games and infinite games. And finite games are very much games that are played to end. And infinite games are games that are played in contribution with a greater meaning to them for the game itself to continue. And in that was where I started to really think about the more selfish, like trying to win and trying to be better for me anyway. It felt like it was a very egotistical driven thing. I wouldn't say that was my main driver, but I realized that paragliding itself just had so much

more to give. And I started to like really think, wow, like I wonder if there's other people that are experiencing the same thing as me. And is there something that I can share with others to use that spark and that passion? I would say that was the sort of the catalyst for me. And then it's been quite a few years of playing with these thoughts and trying to really formulate them that sent me down this sort of journey that is where I can cross flow. That's so interesting. Did moving to a country like Sweden, which is a lot more quieter, society is a lot more

Aninder: different, and it's a bit easier to introspect within yourself because I've been living in Oslo for quite a while now. And I do feel that places like this where there's less noise, to say the least, the easiest way to put up. Did you think that contributed to this as well? So somebody who's living in this side of the world can try and go down that path a bit more easier than the other ones? Yeah, it was a really difficult time in my

life, but I think a very important one for me for exactly the reasons that you say, because I found myself completely isolated. And it was one of those moments where I could have become defeated in myself and given up, or I felt that I had to choose to find another way. And the thing that I discovered again, rediscovered was reading. And I just started to read a wide range of stuff and I started to find all of this insight. And so being alone in that country, yes, being back against the wall, thinking how am I going to improve my situation to get myself out of this is what

went me out, is what kind of put me on this path. And that path really ultimately I've realized even through paragliding from the beginning seems to be a path of sort of self-discovery in a way. And I think that paragliding and flow specifically is really important If we allow it to be, it can be a great teacher. It's something that can show us where our fears are. It can highlight our egos. There's so many things in paragliding, because there's consequences as well, that really, if we allow it, can be an incredible teacher for self-discovery and self-mastery. That's so interesting, Grant. Endless questions are popping in my mind when we have a conversation like this, because this is

Aninder: not the typical gliding banter that we have at either a landing zone or in courses or in any sort of sharing. But let's start by defining flow for our audiences who are curious, because of course there's flow paragliders, which probably is based on same concept. But for me, flow is basically a state of human body when your mind and heart is working in unison and things become like you're honest to yourself, basically, to put it very simply. You do not lie. You perceive things as they are without adding on a pseudo perception around it. But coming at it from you as an expert, what is flow and how to define the word flow for the audiences? Yeah, so you're 100% spot on there. I think flow, it's a

really interesting thing. And the more I dig into it, the more I realize that it's a lot deeper than I originally realized. And so the flow, yeah, exactly what you said is 100% correct. So There was a guy called Maslow, Abraham Maslow, and he described this peak of human experience. He called them peak experiences. And he asked people in various fields what that was and how they described it. And what you just said now is definitely one of the things. It's like the dissolving of the ego, this feeling of oneness, feeling of pure presence, being one body and mind. And so that's definitely the sort of the short one sentence answer to it. But the really interesting thing is that The guy that coined the term

flow, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, is actually like a really quite a profound concept. He looks at it as in terms of us as humans being conscious, being in this vast universe, where things are very disordered, it's crazy, it's a really harsh environment out there in the universe. It's like there's not much life. We have a very special place here where we can live. He's saying that the whole universe is leading towards entropy and that part of that crisis for us is that our thoughts and our mind tends to want to go to the same sort of entropy, like a dissolved state. And that flow is a way for us to order consciousness. It's a way for us to be able to focus our attention so purely. And in doing

that, challenge ourselves and grow and actually grow as people. And the interesting thing is that flow itself is something that we've all experienced. It's all something that we probably remember times that we're in flow. And it's something that has been spoken about regularly. throughout all of human civilization. So the Japanese, the Samurais, they have the concept called Mushin, which is very similar to flow, which is that they call it no mind. And it's that state of pure action without thinking, without thought. And then the ancient Chinese called it Wu Wei, which is that idea of like effortless action. And so what you're describing is exactly that really. It's this

synchronization. It's a harmony of the ego mind, let's say, which is the one that directs what we want to do. And it's something that we need. And then you've got the subconscious self, the nervous system, the muscular system, and your subconscious system that actually does the action. And so when we allow that subconscious system to do the action, to act, if we trust it, then we can act in pure flow. And it's like effortless. We don't have to think about it. And when the thinking mind gets involved, which we can talk about just now, that's when we can get ourselves out of flow. Let's make it simple with examples, okay? Car crash. Things slow down. The frame rate increases like crazy. When

Aninder: you're in the moment, your subconscious, your presence, every single thing in your body is doing its absolute best to survive and sustain life. Is that flow? I would say yes. I'm just thinking because one of the key components of flow is that there needs to be some kind of goal, some

kind of goal that the body wants to achieve. And the reason why activities like paragliding, for example, are such good flow-inducing activities is that because there's real consequences to them. And so generally with flow... You need a goal and then you need some kind of feedback. Are you meeting that goal? And so if you're in a car crash, your goal is to survive. And so your immediate feedback is, am I surviving? Am I not? And so you're getting this hyper, very important focus, that like laser beam focus. And then I guess the trust, which is your instinctual side to act in the way that it needs to. Yes. So yeah, I would say so. There's many things that can be flow activities, but one of

the core components of flow is that the reason why it's so enjoyable in life is because when you are challenging yourself just a little bit, you're actually growing as a person. So it increases our complexity as a person. And so when you're doing activities in that flow state, And you meet the challenge. It's all about, here's a challenge. I've got a small goal to beat that challenge. When you actually overcome that and you learn those skills, you improve as a person, which is where it becomes so enjoyable. Oh, it comes to my mind, Grant. Sensual sex. Is that flow?

Aninder: Because you're in the moment? Absolutely. Absolutely. So flow can really be anything in life. And one of the really interesting things is

that flow can give us meaning in life. So if you align all of your smaller goals in life to a bigger goal in life, like some North Star of meaning, then your whole life can become a flow experience. Yeah. So for some people, they find that through their family. Some people find it through career. And so for me as well, that's like kind of a big thing is that if you can relate something like paragliding to self-mastery, then all of the things you learn from paragliding actually has a much bigger meaning in life. And that is maybe just to become the best version of yourself. And paragliding is like one of your teachers through that. And so you can learn things like emotional regulation, stress relief,

facing your fears, all of these things. If you get into big thermic air in the summer and you can keep yourself calm in those conditions, slow your heart rate, control your breathing, and then you may be sitting in traffic somewhere. You can remind yourself, hey, I was at 3,000 meters in this stonking thermal. Like I can handle this. I don't have to react. And so I think this can be this real sort of crossover. So yeah, anything in life really can be a flow experience. That has some kind of goal and some kind of feedback related to it. And then your challenge and your skills balance has to be great. Yeah. Now, I'm just wondering, let's say being present, because I was trying this exercise going out in the

Aninder: forest. And I was like, I want to try and meditate. But the moment you close your eyes, unless thoughts come to your mind, could it be the thermal that you fell out of? Could it be the race that you never got the position that you were wishing for? Or it could be anything in life. And I was like, okay, let me just sit and focus on the sounds around me. Because I was in Beard flying earlier this year in the Himalayas. And I went to this monastery over there because Beard is full of monasteries. One of the very revered monks, like super respected person, said that if you

want to start meditating, either you can just start focusing on your breath, where you just breathe in, breathe out and focus on that, or you can start focusing on sounds. But what I'm wondering is, human brain, of course, you can train it to become more and more present. The flow state in human brain, how long does that usually last? And like for a layman who's just wanting to get into this side of existence, I would say, what are the time periods that you can have a ballpark figure on or something around that? You mean the time periods exactly of how long you can be in

the flow state? yeah i like when you start getting in the game because obviously i think there is a very subtle transition that you won't

Aninder: really realize because it's it's part conscious part subconscious which kind of takes you into such a situation of existence but let's say okay you can some people might say that you were in flow all throughout the race of two three hours but some people might just be in flow for one single thermal So when it comes to defining the time period in flow, usually how does it look like for people who are starting to realize that they are a part of the system? It would be impossible for me to put a number on that and I don't know the numbers, but I can obviously try to just speak

on that. If you think about even just learning to try to meditate, I think one of the powers of mindfulness meditation, it's not to try and stop your thoughts in any way. It's to notice just how much chatter is going on in the mind uncontrollably. And in the beginning, I think it's very difficult for people just to be able to observe with us going on sidetracked. And so I think for people that are just starting out, the first step really would then be an awareness of that process. Because one of the things that's going to take you out of flow is to get the thinking mind going. That's what we call flow blockers. And a big culprit of that is judgment. So let's say you're in a thermal and you are

trying to stay in the thermal and you fall out the thermal and there's people higher than you and you stop and then you say to yourself, why did you do that? Oh, man, I'm thermaling so badly or you're not good at thermaling or whatever it is. You start this chain reaction of negative talk. And that takes you out of the flow state. And if you're not aware that you're actually doing that, and if you're not aware that it doesn't have to be that way, it doesn't have to be the thought pattern that follows, then I would imagine that your periods of flow could be very tiny, potentially. Something like paragliding, I think maybe one of its draws though, however, and things like surfing and paragliding,

all of these, I like to call them the elemental arts because to me, they're more of like an art form, like the martial arts than just a sport itself. But I think that they are able to slot us into flow for much longer and much deeper than ordinary life. And I think that's maybe part of why they're such a draw without us realizing it. So I think in paragliding, you can be in a flow state for quite some time. And I would imagine that the top pilots, people like Kriegel, are probably in it for the majority of the time, or at least they are quite aware if they're being pulled out and

then they will have things that can pull them back in. And you see this in famous sports players, like tennis players, for example, like Roger Federer. You don't see them expressing negative emotions or positive emotions very much. It's very like, because it's this, the moment you start taking too much credit or the moment you start being negative of yourself, you're pulling yourself out of the state. And so it's really about trying to come back into this mindless, this sort of not mindless state, but into a still mind. It's a still mind. It's having a completely still mind. What you're saying is monk mode, basically. Yeah. The way monks exist. Yeah. Very much. I think a lot of this does come from, I

wouldn't say it's even ancient wisdom, because I think it's an insight that all humans have. And we try to find ways to explain it and to put terms on it. And for us to understand it now, we've called it flow, but it's really talking about the same thing. But yeah, it very much is like monk mode. This is so hard because testosterone is designed to excite us and make us angry, strong, laugh, whatever. It's an emotional hormone that

Aninder: drives our emotion. And instinctively, when you are, let's say, let's say Usain Bolt is winning the hundred meters, smashing it. Like when you're close to crossing the finish line, you will be happy with the reward that is coming your way. So it's nice to celebrate. It's nice to shout it out loud, but doing that means that you will also go on the other end of the spectrum when it is not going that nice and you will be giving out those emotions which are relevant to those feelings. So eventually does it all comes down to managing testosterone. And the reason I'm using testosterone is things that you chase in life could be a chocolate, could be physical intimacy, could be racing full bar, but

Aninder: it's the same want. and how you control that one versus how you get the reward. It's that it's as simple as that, right? Yeah, it does make

sense. And I think that's quite an interesting point that you're touching on. And it's a little bit, I wouldn't say it's controversial, but it's something that's very much baked into our society. And there's nothing wrong with it per se. But we can, I think, sometimes be led down a path of chasing dopamine, really, that high. And what happens when you get a lot of praise or glory is that you do get these spikes of really good feelings. But like you say, you become almost addicted to that spike, that good feeling. And then a lot of what you're doing is really for that end point. And everything else that comes before that almost doesn't matter in a way. And so you can have, again, you could fly a 99K flight and

land and maybe not make the 1K that would, I don't know, get you the 100K or get you the points. And you could feel disappointed with your flight. And so it's almost if you imagine dancing or listening to music and doing it just so you can get to the end as quickly as possible. The point then becomes the end and it becomes the glory and things. If you're doing it just for that specifically, then it becomes about the validation and about what other people think. That doesn't mean that competition can't be a very useful tool and a way to push yourself and test your abilities. I'm not anti-competition in any way. But I think it's good for us to be aware of what our driving factors are. Because if you focus

rather on the process... So that is like really getting into flow, really being very centered. So you're doing your best in your flight and enjoying it the most. Then whatever the outcome is, and that may very well be performing at really high levels, those outcomes will happen naturally. But if you start to focus on that outcome, the moment things are going wrong, and that is the main driver, that's really going to probably take you out of flow. So I think that's what you'll see. You'll see even people like Krigelmeier in some of his interviews, he'll talk about how he's not thinking about the result. He's not thinking about the winning. He's just thinking about what is my next step. Because when

you need to focus on the things that you can control, and obviously, it's nice to win. People want to do well. But I think really, if you look at somebody like him specifically, and I'm a really big fan of his, I think just because of his sort of his, the way that he's approached paragliding, of everything I've read from when I started the sport, how he is so meticulous at everything from how efficiently to pack the glider, of pushing himself in strong conditions. He's really a master. He's really... gone out to improve himself and his psychology and his mental game in every aspect. And I think that's very beautiful. And I think all of those results are a showcase of that. And so I would say, I

don't know, I can't speak for him, but from my outside perspective, it looks to me like he's just trying to become the most all-rounded holistic pilot and a master at paragliding and everything else has happened as opposed to coming into it saying, okay, I'm going to be the best in the world. Yeah. There's kind of a slightly different angle. Neither of them are wrong necessarily, but I think that one path leads to more fulfillment. And I think the other path is once the glory is gone, then you've got another rival that's trying to catch up and it's very quick and fleeting. So many things that I want to start with, but I think let's just define Kregel as paragliding Yoda. That is the easiest way

Aninder: for people to decode what we are, the image that we are trying to paint of Kregel. But I think the reason I was smiling in the middle of your talk was this is as simple as going on a date to meet somebody that you wish to have your potential partner. It's like, if you go in there expecting to get into her pants, the chances are that you will mess it up and the desperation will show up on your face anyways. And it will be easy for the other person to read it. But if you go out there just to have fun and be present in the moment, then the reward, regardless of whatever it is, if

Aninder: you do make the end goal, then it's a bonus. Yeah, who doesn't like it? But regardless, having less expectation will make whatever reward coming to you in a very sweet and satisfying manner. And this is where I want to bring in Darwinism a little bit. Because let's say dopamine release and testosterone, all of that is naturally present in humans, right? Which was such a big necessity when we were chasing dopamine release by hunting and killing and running after different kind of animals and hunting for food. Extreme ways of getting your... calorie need fulfilled. And then now we are getting dopamine release by scrolling. Somehow a six inch screen has figured out an algorithm to make that

happen. But in this world where dopamine release is available on demand, the survival of the fittest is all about the ones who can manage it correctly. I think that would be back in the day as well, that you could go out and chase a dopamine release at every single prey, whether it was fulfilling enough or whether it was worth the effort, or you could save your energy and go in and strike when it really mattered and then get the dopamine release. Let's say what I'm saying is you try to invest your heart and soul in a race where you're going all in. and you do want to win

but you are conscious enough to tell yourself that let's focus on this score let's focus on this line let's focus on the next bagel or something then it's a bit easier to hit the nail on the head rather than saying that oh my god there are 20 pilots in the leading gaggle and all of them are ahead of me in the comp and if i don't catch up or don't get enough leading points then i'm not gonna make the podium or the top 10 or whatever the goal is so is it all about managing dopamine releases is what i'm saying be it while going on a date be it while going out to get some food or

scrolling on social media or finding the best line to glide to the next turn point Yeah, so I'm very interested in things like dopamine and

chemicals. I'm not a neuroscientist, so I wouldn't be able to speak very deeply on the actual chemicals that are happening. I'm sure they play a massive role in it. But I think the point that you bring out around evolution and our ancestors is quite valid because if you imagine when you're hunting for an animal, what state do you need to be in when you are crossing along? If you watch a cat hunting or if you're watching a human, if you're trying to stalk some prey, the flow state absolutely would have been a state, the same kind of thing, right? That effortless action, no-minded, spontaneous action that would have had real rewards. And so you can almost see from an evolutionary basis like how

important that would be and also how satisfying that would be. And One of the things that pulls us out of flow, again, is that negative self-talk. Because the moment you start thinking, you are taking away the job of the subconscious mind. So there's this idea. So there's a guy that wrote a book. Let me just quickly on a little tangent. Guy wrote a book called The Inner Game of Tennis. And I highly recommend everybody read it. It's not just about tennis. It's relevant to all sports. And he blended all of these ideas. And he spoke about there being two selves. Self one, self two. Self one is like your ego self and he calls it the teller. So if you are playing tennis, for example, in a sport and you make a mistake and you

say, oh, why did you do that? Oh, come on, hold the racket. Or, oh man, hit it harder. Then he would ask, okay, but who are you talking to? Because if you're talking to someone, like why would you have to say words? If it's you, you would already know it. You wouldn't even have to think it. And basically saying that you have your conscious self, and then you have the subconscious self, which is the doer. And when we learn to walk, for example, when you were babies, there was no words involved. There's just the intention of you and me. We're looking at our parents. And do you

want to walk? If you imagined that our parents try to teach us how to walk by telling us every single muscle to move, how to balance. Every time we tried something, no, stand like this. We would never learn. It'd be too confusing. So we learn naturally through trial and error. With that pure intention, baby doesn't have the thoughts or the words to tell themselves, oh, you're an idiot. You can't walk. No, that was a bad step. right we just do it and yeah and so what happens usually is that our subconscious is way more intelligent than us it's always listening it's always aware and what we tell it is basically what it'll do so if you're telling it that you're really bad at something then it's true but

if you learn to trust it And you just set your intention of, so goals are very important. So let's say you want to climb the thermal. If you want to get to the top, that's a very clear goal. The more you can visualize what you want to do, the more chance you have of getting there. But then in some ways, you have to be able to just let go and trust your subconscious to be able to perform that action. That same part of you that can pick up a glass. I don't know how to pick up this pen. I don't know what muscles to use. I don't know. I couldn't. If I had to describe this to my body in

words, it's impossible for me to do it. Yet I can do it just like that. And so this idea of having a still mind, getting the ego out the way, just having the pure goal of what I want to do, and then trusting yourself to find a way is really where flow comes into it. Yeah. It's easier said than

Aninder: done, my man. Absolutely. It is. It is. Because a lot of what we... It's incredible. We are very harsh on ourselves. And a lot of what this sort of

idea is about is actually unlearning. It's unlearning the negative self-talk that we've grown up with. It's unlearning the negative thought patterns and the habitual patterns that we've programmed with, let's say. Because no one did it on purpose with malicious intent. That's how we've grown up. But if you are able to still the mind and not have negative thoughts, what happens then is you can actually very neutrally observe what's happening. Because when your self one tries to take over of the action. So if I'm thermaling and now I'm trying too hard, I'm trying to thermal, I'm tensing up, I'm overriding, I'm losing confidence in my subconscious self. And in the end, you're not really

seeing where it is that you're going wrong. So if you can get to a stage where you can actually calm your mind and be still and just observe what's happening, then let's say you fall out the thermal, you can be like, ah, interesting, I fell out. Next time you can try a slightly different way. And what will happen is that with anything that you do, when it clicks, it'll feel right. And when it feels right, your nervous system will remember that forever. It's like riding a bike. To put it simply, practice makes you perfect. The more you practice, the more

Aninder: your subconscious will get ingrained into it. So that is an incredibly important point. And it is quite a difficult thing with paragliding

because often we don't get that much airtime, right? We're not in the air for long enough. And then we have other flow blockers. And one of the big ones is fear. And so if you're flying and the nerves are going and you're afraid and you're starting to think ahead of anxiety, your brain is going. And so those times that you have, even when you're in the air, are not necessarily pure anxiety. learning times and so it can be quite frustrating because you have all this time where you're under the saddle but you're not getting it's not like a tennis court you can have a ball machine and you can just be hitting but of course there is something that you can do to practice and it's completely undervalued and it's so

important that's ground handling Man, the gold mine of Farsport, 100%. The gold mine. We had some students the other day. Nice, quite strong wind, almost on the edge, not quite over the edge, but like right there. And we had them on their back, on the ground. and we did as well with them, just looking up at the wing and even occasionally closing your eyes. And what happens then, because you're facing the wing, your hands are crossed. So you're not thinking now, okay, should I pull left? Should I pull right? Because you don't want to be thinking. And you are just responding to the movements of the glider. And it's trying to dive and you're having to catch the brakes. And as it's moving, then what you're

doing is you're slowly but surely fine-tuning your feeling for the glider and thinking, becoming more and more one with your wing. Because of course, that is part of the flow state, right? It's being one, even like your glider becomes like an armor in the hand. And so if you practice more and can get into the right headspace, then that is something when you get into the air, you have a really fine sensitivity and fine-tuned feeling that then gives you much more bandwidth to be able to think about, oh, where are the birds? Or where's my next line? How am I- Oh, exactly. Yes. In the beginning, like you said, it's easier said than done. In the beginning in paragliding, it's a simple thing to do, but

there are so many impressions. There's the carabiners, there's the lines, there's the rises, there's the wind direction, there's the mountains. There's just, there are so many things that is an information overload. And I think one of the ways that people can really help to reduce their nerves and get into flow more easily is actually just to spend a lot more time ground handling. Because most people get what I like to call a launch anxiety. And launch anxiety is when you're standing there and even on the way up to takeoff, the nerves are going and that can really set the tone for your whole flight. So glad you come across this and you're speaking to one. And I'll give the blueprint that

Aninder: I took, that I followed diligently for everybody listening to get out of launch anxiety because I was... becoming one of those pilots who was reaching a stage where no matter what may come, I am only going to do a reverse launch. Forward is not for me, and I'm going to stay as far away from it as I can. But then even the reverse, regardless of how much clarity it gives you when you see the wing coming up and everything, even that started giving me launch anxiety. And of course, if you start your flight with anxiety, what the hell do you expect to happen? The energies that you're carrying in the flight. So I made it a point. I was like, all right, this is not how it's going to work. Let's go berserk on ground

Aninder: handling. All right. That is a necessity if you want to enjoy with your eyes closed. And to do that, I was like, let's start ground handling with eyes closed. As you said, it is so much fun. First of all, because your balance is all over the place. Your mind and body is like, what the hell is going on? but as you said if you're in laminar flow the wing is giving you subtle inputs and you're able to keep it on your head which you will it's not that hard just do that for two hours and you'll figure out the trick i call that building intuition with respect to flying because ground

handling with your eyes closed not doing anything stupid i'm gonna put out a disclaimer here so don't go out and get dragged and still keep your eyes closed but i would say First of all, closing the sensory input of visual aids is such a big difference to the human brain. They're like, oh my God, suddenly I have to switch to all the other senses to make sure of how the world is around me. So as soon as you shut off the visual sensory input, everything else just enhances, like the feeling, the pressure. And the more you become comfortable with them, the more your subconscious or your intuition, as you would say, gets stronger or gets more data in that regard. And which eventually, once you transfer it

subconsciously again in the air, it is like adding to enhance your whole flight experience, right? Yeah, 100%. And you used a word that I think is

so important when it comes to ground handling. A lot of people don't realize, and that is the word fun. Because when you practice ground handling a lot and you start to do like wingtip touches or you can like put a bucket on the ground and try to stand on the bucket and kite the glider there or do all of these things lying on your back, it's a flowing experience in itself. It's really enjoyable and it gives you such confidence when you get to the takeoff. And just thinking about what you said there around how it becomes easier after time. One of the key things with flow, like we said, you've got to set a goal for yourself. But there's this thing called the challenge skills balance. If the

challenge is too high for your skill level, then you're going to be faced with a lot of anxiety. So if you are at a takeoff, you haven't ground handled, the wind is strong, it's a bit side on, that challenge is going to feel out of your scope and you're going to feel a lot of anxiety. On the other hand, if you are constantly flying the same site, you're just soaring, you don't have to think there's a challenge, then you start to get into the boredom phase. And so the flow, there's this flow channel, which is the right mix between skills and challenge. And they talk about

stretching, not breaking. So you wanna stretch your ability by about 4%, just a little bit more, challenge yourself a little bit more than what your current skill level is. And then when you overcome that, You return like that's how you grow. And so a practical thing for people when you're going in ground handling, of course, like you say, start in easy conditions. But as you build yourself up, because I think a lot of people, what happens is they'll ground handle, they'll stand there, they'll get quite good at kiting the glider, maybe facing forward. And then they're kind of like, okay, what do I do now? Okay, this is a bit boring. Okay, I can stand here. It's because they haven't set a

challenge for themselves. And so if you start to incrementally increase that challenge, either through maneuvers or even finding a nice open field where if you do get dragged, you don't get hurt, learning how to kill your glider in those conditions, really important skill as well. Or if you even go to find a field where there's a little bit of turbulence. Because if you're ground handling in turbulence and you can manage the glide in those conditions, well, then if you're on a takeoff and you haven't picked up that maybe it's a bit side on or something, then it's not this big shock. You already have the skills. And that can be applied to all of your flying. If you're setting yourself

small challenges on each flight, even if it's just a landing. then the flight will never be boring and you'll always be moving forward. And I think that's really the key to a lot of really the masters and people that get very good is that none of their flights are aimless. There's always something that they are pushing themselves on. There's one thing that I like to do sometimes when it's very light, for example, it's very light. Maybe I find, let's say, for example, I've got up to 500 meters and it's like 0.2 meters a second and you can't really turn in it. I'll slow the glider down, facing into wind, and just try to stay in the same spot and see like how much can I eke out? How patient can I be here? And you can sit

maybe sometimes 10 minutes just eking out, maybe gaining 50 meters. But... Oh, fuck. Something like that for me, that's intensely satisfying because, and I guess I just get into a stage that's very focused in that, but it's really fine tuning. And for me, it's personally satisfying. But I think the point that I'm making there is that there could always be a little challenge. And if you're 50 meters above everyone else and they can't get there and you've been doing this thing, then I think that transfers like if you're doing cross country as well and you hit a patch that's very difficult, then you fine tune these abilities. So I think everything is a learning experience. I know I

think Gavin McClurg always used to say that every flight is a training flight for the next one or something like that. And I agree. I think it's always approaching it like this as a practice, like it's a martial art in a way. Yeah. that we're always focused, trying to become better, enjoying ourselves, but also making sure that we're growing and not becoming complacent. I think I want to bring this saying that is

Aninder: probably revered or well-known all across the world that says, change is the only constant. Monotonous being monotony, I don't know what's the singular word of that thing, but if no matter what you do, life will change and shake up things for you. So rather do them yourself and keep on going in the direction that you want. Or if you're expecting to go the same top to bottom every day or the same 100 kilometer milk run or the same coring the thermal, it will become a core and you will fall out of that, which eventually will make you fall out of flow and everything else. Keep on changing and keep on staying excited around the whole process. I think that is the key here. Yeah, absolutely. And that reminded me of

this idea also of letting go of the outcomes, really. So focusing on the process and enjoying the process. Because, yeah, like you say, like life changes, we can't control how strong the thermal is going to be, we can't control, like maybe your goal is to fly 100k flight, you can't control the weather. But what you can do is you can make sure that you are reading about flying, you're ground handling, you're out there flying when you can, and you're really just trying to feel the wing. Because one of the things that you can do to bring a focus in is also just to really be aware and mindful of the tension of the brake pressure, because that tells you a lot about thermal pressure. And so if you set yourself these

small goals, then what will happen is over time with practice, these larger goals will just happen. And so like you say, you can't... Ultimately, focus on what you can control and try to let go of the things that you can't. And practice is the way to become perfect. Exactly. And that's what you can control. Exactly. 100%. Grant, let's talk a little bit about flow triggers, because I think that is essential when you

Aninder: chase a thing like this. For me, visualization is one way that I'm like, okay, Before I go in the flight, and I learned this from my sports time when I was playing hockey at a pretty high level, field hockey is what I'm talking about, where it was like before going in the match, I'm like, all right, this is how my moves will be. This is how I'm going to dribble. This is how I'm going to dodge past the defenders. And this is how I'm going to go in for the shoot, for the goal. In flying, I'm like, all right, that is how i clip in that is how i take off that is how i core up the first thermal

house thermal then take the transition lines not all the way to the end because of course i mean if i've flown that ridge like beer i know how to visualize that whole ridge but if i'm at a new site i at least visualize the first 10 15 of the flight to get me pumped up i would say to get me going But usually, what are the ways or the rituals of some sort? And I know this is very subjective and personal because it depends on how your personal feeling is. But what are these few subtle things that a person can do to be better prepared to achieve this state in flight or before? That's a good

question. And I think it's important, like as you said, that it is very personal. But I think having some sort of routine is very important. So I think about sometimes... Like maybe, I don't know if you're familiar with the sport of rugby or maybe like American football, but often like in these big match environments, if somebody has quite an important kick or something to do, you'll notice that they have quite, it's exactly the same ritual every time before they take the kick or do this thing. And that has obviously been practiced regularly. back on the training field they probably visualize it at home it's a way to sort of go through this motion that's that reminds your body okay now it's time to

get in the zone and so we have of course pre-flight checks in paragliding that we should all be doing before we take off for safety. But I think that the real value is that if you have a very good pre-flight routine, and this can even include the night before you go flying, then you're setting yourself up for a much more positive sort of entry into the flight experience. And so that can be everything from weather forecasting Because if you go blind into the air, there's a lot more chance that you're going to feel afraid or there's going to be a big unknown. If you have quite a good mental picture of what you think today is going to do, that's going to help with your nerves. If you have all of

your kit set up nicely, because if you arrive to take off and you're like, how did I bring my radio? Is my helmet there? Or I forgot this. You're distracted. And if you're distracted, what's happening, you're thinking, and what do we want? We want a still mind. And so all of these things, everybody might have a different routine, but having those routines is very important. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be quite simple. For example, for the pre-flight checks, I think it's a really good idea for people to have a numbering system. So you work out while you're ground handling, like how many points do you have that needs to be checked? So maybe it's like helmet, both leg straps,

whatever it is, your risers are locked, speed bar, all of those connections. You work out how many you have. And then your pre-flight check, you can name them if you want. Some people like to say helmet, strap. But the problem is that if you do that, if you just say the words, helmet, carabiners, speed bar, if you've missed something, you don't really know. But if you have a numbering system, if you know through practice that I have 10 points that I have to get to every time, if I count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, if I'm in a rush and I get to 9 on the last one, oh, wait, I've

missed something. And then very easily you can go through all of those checks again. Ah, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

And any time then you get – and obviously it will be different for everybody's setup, so you have to do this while you're in practice – But part of that whole system and routine will be getting into the zone. So if you open your glider the same way every time or take your stuff out, put your instruments on, do all of these things. If you have a regular thing, you're slowly but surely slotting yourself into that zone. Another thing that's really useful and very important, I think, is breathing. A lot of us are not actually aware of how shallow we are breathing. And when you're shallow breathing, you're telling the reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, to get ready for something scary normally. If you

do nice, deep, deep breaths from your belly first into your chest, and this is something you can do while you're afraid, while you're flying too. Big deep breaths into the belly, into the chest. Slowly release it out. Do three or four of those, maybe just before you take off. It's also telling your body that you're getting into the state and kind of relaxing you as well. And then having goals. Goals are very important to get into the flow state. If you have some kind of goal, a little challenge for yourself, then you're focused on that goal and because it's all about really directing your attention flows about directing your attention if you're distracted if you're ruminating if you're

thinking about someone else if you're worried about someone who's higher than you if you are i need to fly further than this person you're very much in your head and then you're not in flow state. So flow is really being focused like very intently on the task at hand and that can be as simple as having a good takeoff. It can be as simple as feeling the pressure through your brake toggles while you're thermaling. It can be, I want to land on the spot and being like laser focused on your spot landing because then you're allowing the subconscious sort of self part of you to take over. I'm craving to say I'm sorry to cut you in between, but I'm craving to say the point that just do a little bit of yoga

Aninder: before going in for the flight, man, because that's what it is all about. Brings in the breath work, brings in the mindfulness, brings in all these shenanigans that we are talking about. And now, okay, the Western world is getting a bit more into... These kind of things where they're holding classes for how to breathe properly and how to have these mindfulness and all of this. But that's what yoga is anyway, is teaching you. So just do yoga and you're set for an epic flight. How simple is that? Oh, it definitely wouldn't do any harm. In many ways, it would

absolutely, I'm sure, add to the experience. I haven't done yoga myself, but I do practice mindfulness meditation. And it's helped a lot in many aspects of my life. And I think it's something that's becoming more and more known just for its benefits, especially in sports. In fact, there's some very well-known basketball players who owe a lot of their success in their careers to mindfulness. And again, it's really just about stopping. It's about having a still mind. So considering doing that, and even if it's not getting into meditation itself, maybe for some people that's not what they want to do, although I highly recommend it, just learning to be aware that you're afraid. We all get

afraid. And what I like to tell my students too is that it's also the relationship that we have to the feeling that's important. If you're on takeoff and you have launch anxiety, we must remember that anxiety and excitement, they come from the same place. And really what it is, it's your body activating. to do something now that is quite extraordinary. And that is you're about to go flying, which is not normal. And so if you have a negative relationship with the feeling, if you don't like the feeling of the butterflies, if you're resisting that feeling, then you are, you're going to tense up. It's going to be like, it's not going to be good and you're not going to be active. If you can tell yourself, okay,

this is me activating, let's go. So you go from flight to fight, right? And so you're getting more into the activity mode, so it's your body activating to do something cool. And so if you rather recognize the feelings, okay, cool, this is here, this is helping me, this is making me sharp and focused, and then use breathing just to settle yourself, then you can, because you don't want to get rid of fear. Fear, it's important, but you rather want to utilize it as a tool to make yourself sharp and able to get in the zone. I mean, I'm just thinking a little bit about the fact

Aninder: that we had this point where you should not have any expectations, right? Have goals, but not expect to. So while we are preparing or while we are getting in the zone, is that contributing to that point? Because we are expecting something, right? What would you say that we're... Do

you mean expecting to get into the zone? expecting to perform decent i would say expecting to get in the zone of course there has to be a will to

Aninder: find a way but i would say just going out there and saying that okay i have This might not be the best example, but the numbering system that you had for checks, like you have the numbering system because you expect everything to go well. So there is an intent, but actions only come with intent and results only come with action. So it is a cycle that you have to be a part of without getting too deep into it or without overthinking it. I think is that the way to put it across? Yes, so there's definitely desire, but there's definitely an intent and that will be your goal. So

your goal is maybe to have a good takeoff. Your goal is to, you can only really, I would say, focus on the things that are directly in your control. So you start with a good takeoff and then when you maybe find your first thermal, your goal is then to try and max out that climb and stay in the air. Paraglide is an intrinsically flow- inducing activity because our goal overall is to stay in the air. So as long as you're in the air, you're getting the feedback, you're still flying. You're really in a flow state in that whole time. But then you can have kind of sub goals

within that flight that sort of add to your focus and to your growth, let's say, as a pilot. So your expectations, I think, is something different. Because if you're expecting to take off and fly 100Ks, then that expectation might surface as negative talk. I don't know, every time maybe you buy to have a low save or something like that. It depends. You can have a hope, you can have a desire, but it doesn't have to necessarily be an expectation because if it's an expectation, then I think you're going to be very frustrated because you're going to, I think that's when you're going to start maybe kicking your helmet when it doesn't go right. And the problem with that sort of mindset is that All

failure is a data point. Like you have to have failure in order to succeed. Like there's no two ways about it. So failure is a gift. We say failure, but it's not failure in itself. I like to call it, it's like you're calibrating. So if you are trying to land on the spot and you keep getting it wrong. So if every time your goal was to land on the spot and you miss it and you're angry with yourself, Then you start that negative cycle and you're not open to the feeling of what it was that you got that needed to change. So it's calibrating the sights of a gun. You keep

shooting around the target until you find what feels right until you get it there. And so it's more around like letting go. Having goals is like a North Star. So you have the overarching direction and then focusing only on what you control in the moment, in the present moment. If you're thermaling here and you're thinking about the landing in 10Ks, you're not in the present moment. If you're thinking about beating somebody else that's in the air with you, then you're not in the present moment. Does that make sense? Yeah, but probably the game of chess is not a good

Aninder: example for this one because there you have to think 20 moves ahead. And that cannot be replicated in sports like ours because then it will...

Well, I'm not actually sure because I've heard that, I'm not an expert on this in any means, but I have heard examples of chess being spoken about where the really good, like the grandmasters in chess, where they talk about not thinking, where they can just see all the moves on the board. They are so skilled and so in tune that this is just like a feeling. And I think that is what we can actually develop in paragliding too. So this is why it's so important as well, this challenge skills balance thing. If you are struggling and you're flying and you think, okay, now I need to

get a hotter glider. Getting a hotter glider is just going to cause you to need to pay much more attention to it. You're probably going to be more afraid of it. And that means that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be aware of all the other signs and things that you need, like birds flying or clouds or what's my next line. All of those things that maybe you can develop over time as intuition, you're going to be spending so much of your time thinking about your equipment, right? And that goes for the conditions that you fly in. It goes for the sites that you fly at.

That goes for the lines that you're trying to fly. If you incrementally increase the challenge, then you'll be at a state where you're not thinking about any of that stuff. And now you start to slowly but surely open up what it is you can see and you can feel. I don't know if you get this now, but I found that over the years, nowadays, like seeing birds and things like that, it's like just becomes a flash. Sometimes like I'll see dust. I know where the thermal is going. And very often it starts to just feel like a feeling that I should go this way. I'm by no means always

getting it right. But it gives me a glimpse into what I think people like Krigelmeier again experience because people always say he just seems to know where to go. He just seems to know the line to fly. And I think it's almost like those chess masters. I think over the years of just focus, practice, and just pure mastery, he just has an intuition for all of it now. And actually, he talks about this in a lot of his interviews. He talks about the feeling. He listens to his feeling. If he has a bad feeling about going a certain way, it doesn't go that way. And so really,

it's all about feeling. I think I really want to bring out a simple topic that we agreed on in the beginning of the show, and that is practice makes

Aninder: you perfect. And let's say, for example, I was thinking when you said that you intuitively know what to do when you have done that so many times. And I was thinking about this takeoff spot that we have in Oslo over the city. A lot of fellow pilots are not comfortable flying there. They're like, dude, it's too many things that can go wrong. I wouldn't want to take a chance. But for me, I've given it so many tries. I've flown there so many hours. I'm like, wow, paradise of flying in Norway. And for me, it's so easy because I know where to go. I know where to find the

thermals. I know which are the triggers or I know where to call it a day. And probably with Kriegel, because he has practiced it so many times in the Alps where we see him the most, because he has done it repeatedly, it becomes subconscious mind taking over after a while. Regardless of all the talks that we could have around this topic, regardless of all the encyclopedias that have been written over the years by all kind of sages on how to become a better version of yourself in this, airtime is literally the best solution to all the answers that can come with anything paralleling, right? Yes, I think airtime is absolutely 100%. Practice is critical and is key. I think it is also important to realize,

though, that airtime without the right mindset is not necessarily going to be equal to airtime with the right mindset. What I mean by that is that you could be practicing the wrong things a thousand times. And that won't necessarily... So practice makes perfect if you're practicing the right things. So if you're practicing... So if you... Because let's say you just go to your local coastal soaring site and you fly in easy conditions for 10,000 hours. You will have like great mastery of that coastal soaring site, but it'll be different to maybe somebody that has gone out and pushed themselves and challenged themselves for the same amount of time. Practice absolutely does make... Does... make perfect

if you're practicing in the right way. And I think it's very important also to be aware of the mental side of it because if you also are not aware of that and your motivations maybe push you to fly in more risky conditions or to fly for other people or to maybe, I don't know, try things that are not within your ability or show off or things like that, you might end up hurting yourself or pushing you beyond your limits because you were flying for some extrinsic goal. And I think that's another very important thing to understand about flow is that flow in itself, these activities, they're called autotelic activities. And those are that they are activities that the reward is the activity

itself. So we fly because it's enjoyable to fly. And that's, so if you imagine like a cat, right, stalking a mouse, right? and it's all of its control all of its like body movements everything is like that there's no thinking about it it's just natural it stands there waiting and then let's say that the little mouse is about to jump and spontaneously without thinking that cat jumps grabs the mouse and catches it the reward is the mouse So it doesn't need any praise for that. It doesn't need to compete for that. It doesn't need to show that it's a better master. These things can be very useful for us. But if you make those the goal, then you lose the whole journey and the really self of the

fulfilling and gratifying experience of because really it's this when you have challenges in life, it doesn't matter what it is. When you overcome a small challenge, it feels really good. And paragliding just is this exponential thing where you can just have these incredible experiences and you can always be getting better. And so that in itself is really where the reward lies. And yeah, that's really a key thing to understand about flow experiences. Love it, man. Love it. I think this is such a useful information, which if incorporated in our schooling

Aninder: systems of paragliding, like... We are just told to run off a small hill and then take life, whatever life throws at us, which is like such, I really, but I think now a lot of instructors like you are bringing the mental training into the whole game as well and making it a more holistic effort rather than just talk to bottoms from a small school hill or something like that. We have to remember as well that paragliding is a

very new sport. It's very new. And a very new activity, let's say. And so there are so many things that we still need to learn. But it is very – it's crucial, actually, this mental side of it. And I think everybody knows that. We all know it's completely mental. Once you can thermal to the top of a thermal – You can just repeat that and you can fly across country. But very often what happens is there's all these other things that happen that get in the way of that. And that's, I think we've, I'm not sure if you've heard of intermediate syndrome. You probably have. I think

we've all heard of it. And that is a real danger in our sport. And of course, there's the expert syndrome as well. And all of those things, the majority of risk in paragliding is not like bad weather or equipment failure or things like that. Because we can, if you make good decisions... You don't fly in that. And so really most of the risk in paragliding is subjective risk. That is risk that comes from bad decision making or flying for the wrong reasons, flying out of your skill level, all of these things. This mental side of it and really trying to dive deeper into flow. And really, if I'm honest about the motivation behind it, a lot of it is I look at the people that I know that I

look up to, my mentors and masters, and I see people like Kriegel and local sort of sky gods. And you see some of them that have been flying for 30 years and have never had an accident. And then you're like, okay, what are they doing that other people are not? And so for me, it's trying to understand what is their mental state. And I think a lot of them naturally, I think this is the thing also to understand is that for a lot of the people that are really good, they naturally do a lot of these things. And maybe for some of us, we have to become more aware of it and

learn about it. But I think that there are ways that we can really enjoy this elemental art that we do and have long sort of incident-free journeys if we can be a little bit more like self-aware. Yeah, and just enjoy the process. And anyway, that's what I hope. I hope that I can do that for myself. Because it's very easy to get caught up in other things. And like I said, I've chased records and done all that stuff. And I'm sure I still will, like in some ways. And then I will have to try to learn from that and come back to it all. But I believe that if we can share this, that

we can hopefully help people to also find that joy and to have incident-free sort of journeys, at least minimize it. I think

Aninder: self-awareness is such an important skill in general life as well, man. Like that is simply coming down to the point of being honest with yourself and not lying to your face when you look at yourself in the mirror. If you are not good enough to go full bar on that wing in these conditions, then back off. How hard can it be? But it's much easier said than done. But I think this is where Yeah, it is. And I just want to add as

well, like none of the stuff for me, I think is like a moral stance. There's no like prescriptions. I think everybody's journey is unique and everybody is doing this for their own reasons. And for some people, that glory and competition might be their driving force and that's okay. I think it's really, again, at the end of the day, it's just about self-awareness and being truly understanding where the motivations lie. And personally for me, I would, if I did have an accident paragliding, like a serious one, If I was doing it in a way that was meaningful, if my flying was really meaningful to my life, which I believe that it is, then for me, it feels it's more justified in a way.

Whereas if I was doing it because like I got into some ego battle with somebody or like rivalry and I was pushing because I wanted to, it was meaningless. Then for me personally, I don't know if that would be worth it. And so that's partly what's driving me too is just my own self-awareness and people maybe some people relate to this maybe they don't but i think the important point is to find the meaning for yourself in this find ways to make it safer and then also just enjoy it because paragliding is yes the most incredible thing we can do as humans fuck yeah man yeah getting in the air levitating it's super levitating at will what a huge dopamine rush man can you believe it it tops everything

Aninder: Top's the most amazing sex you can have. Top's the most amazing kill you can have for dinner. Top's the most amazing... No, but maybe human relations are bigger. Definitely. They're not materialistic. I think the amazing thing is I've done a lot of solar flying, but when I've

reflected as well, I've also realized that a lot of my really good memories are actually landing with friends or at least being in the same air with friends and talking about it afterwards. And I think that is something that I would like to try to incorporate in paragliding a little bit more is trying to set up more... flights where we do tasks together instead of competing with each other's okay can we set things up where we have a goal of like how many pilots can we get into this 50k goal together can we make it bigger that kind of thing was where we're working together a bit like the brazilians did when they broke the world records for me that sounds really i think that could be really meaningful and

fulfilling It's just so beautiful looking at another wing in the landscape in general. Like the shape of the paragliding system itself

Aninder: is so visually appealing. I think what you're saying is basically vibing and thriving is what it's all about in the world. Yeah,

absolutely. I think I quickly want to add on to the point of self-awareness before we move on to the next one is that I heard this

Aninder: somewhere in base jumping community where they said that before you go out and attempt something out of your comfort zone or you're pushing your limits, try and write an obituary for yourself obituary is basically a farewell speech that is read when you're no longer alive on the planet and that was like and then read it to yourself that this guy went out doing this or he went out doing this in a certain way now try and recollect your thoughts and see does it sound stupid if your obituary speech sounds stupid where he was trying something, the weather was shit, He was not very confident, his skills were not there, but he still went ahead and paid the ultimate price. Or he was trying something, he

was in the zone, taking cues from whatever you said, where, you know, if you are doing something which is worth it, it's a lot easier to convince your brain to do it rather than doing something which is for yourself is stupid. And then anybody else who's going to be around you will be like, why? Simply that is the biggest question. So that's a good way of being self-abating. Yeah, I love that. I think that sums up exactly what I was

trying to say really beautifully. I think it's Yeah, it's a great exercise. I might even do that myself. It helps honestly, like the city

Aninder: take off that I'm talking about. Yeah, if it's crosswind, because there are like literally two or three steps, it's a tiny one, it's a challenging one, the trees are right there, if you do not get enough height. And I'm like, if it is crosswind, if it is blah, blah, blah. And I somehow God forbid, end up in a tree or whatever. I'm going to be a laughingstock for the whole community or anybody not even forget about the community like anybody who's going to watch me it's like how stupid were you to attempt at this kind of a thing when situations are like that but if things are good and you know you're going ahead and doing your thing But of course, turbulence is invisible. Air is something that we

are not designed to be in. Life happens. So then there's an excuse. Then there's a plausible reasoning. But don't make that into a stupid kind of outcome for yourself when you know that you can make more responsible ways to thrive and not just survive in life. I think that's a really good

point. It's important because the perception of risk is also subjective. So if you see the guys in the X-Alps, they're flying sometimes in what we would think is totally crazy conditions. Yet... They fly and so far touch wood, there's been no incidents or no like really serious incidents in the ex-ops. And you have to really then understand that it's because of all the time and the practice that they put in to them, those conditions are within their ability. And some of the pilots then stopped and didn't fly in those things. And it's the same with like base jumping and things like this. If you've never done it before... then it looks like the guy's crazy, but you haven't seen the

whole journey that's got him there. And so you're right, like in paragliding, if you're seeing other people, we're all at different stages of our journey. I think that's what's important to understand. And often when we start to compete, we're actually at different points. And so if you just focus on becoming 1% better than you were yesterday, then you're growing and you're then going to grow with your skill level. But if now suddenly you feel I need to prove something and that might happen in your head with other people flying, you want to show them I'm a good pilot and then all of these other voices come into your head, then you might end up doing something completely out of the flow stage

because you're actually thinking of other people that ends up being stupid because you didn't actually do it for any sort of meaningful internal reasons you did it because of what you thought other people would think of and the thing is we all can fall into this trap very easily and I think that's Again, it's not a moral thing. And you might only realize this through self-awareness because there might be these drivers happening to all of us. It might be happening to me at certain places. And I caught myself doing it the other day actually while I was flying where I was like, oh, wow, I'm really thinking of what they're going to think if I do this thing and start to breathe. And it was the first

time that I really caught myself doing it. And so it's not like we're all immune to it. But I think if we can understand those drivers and become more aware of it, then we have more chance of maybe improving it for ourselves. Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned it because this was a thought

Aninder: that was coming to my mind is let's say high pressure situations. You're racing wingtip to wingtip. You're flying triple Cs. It's like race to goal. Final glide. The one who goes first takes the prize. Or of course, depends on the line as well. But yeah, let's say you are in not such a favorable position you can slowly see your lead echoing away from you or let's let it be a thermal you're not able to core that well in a group of hundred gliders and your core starts to tense up your body starts to like have these stress reactions which make you sub optimally in full state

or whatever it is that you would expect to be so when things are going right and the mode from fight is shifting to flight or like when things are uncomfortable What is the easiest way to bring yourself back in the zone? Because of course, there's nobody trying to run behind us with a dagger, but losing a final glide or not coring and missing the chance to be in the lead gaggle is similar releases of stress and stuff like that. So what's the mantra to navigate something like that? I would say that probably the easiest and most obvious thing is the breath. Because the

breath is something that we have access to at all times, of course, and it's something that we can practice at home. It's something that we can practice while we're flying. Each person could come up with their own thing, I would imagine. So I think really it's what I think what you're wanting to do is you're wanting to become aware of the internal stuff that's starting to happen. So if you become aware of yourself starting to think, oh, no, I'm not going to make it. Oh, no, I'm going to be – I want to win. Or, oh, no, I'm thermaling badly. Like whatever this kind of mental

chatter is, if you – I can imagine that maybe somebody, if they had like a little – something on their cockpit with, I don't know, some words that reminded them of something. Or maybe you do a breathing exercise or you could even have a little mantra for yourself. I like to say to myself, if I'm feeling stressed or nervous, I like to breathe, loosen my abdomen, abs, and then just say, let go. Because part of what... in paragliding we need to do is we need to be able to trust our equipment and trust ourselves. And if you're tensed up, you're almost not trusting that. You're trying to fight it. But I would say probably for people to start with is really the breath. If you can recognize yourself going off, then

it's really focusing on the breath, trying to bring yourself into that state where your mind becomes still. I would say that being able to focus potentially on the pressure and the brakes is a really good one too. Because ultimately, you want to get out of your head. When you're in your head, that's when all the stuff's happening. When you're out of your head, then you can perform at your peak because you can't control the outcome. You can't control if you cross the finish line first. You can't control if you get to the top. And if you try to do that, it's never going to work. And so if you're even thinking about that, it's not going to work. So the only thing that you can do then is to try to get out of your head, get

back into the zone, and then just allow your body to perform at its peak at that time, and then whatever happens out of that will happen. But you'll probably find, a lot of athletes do find, that when they're able to do that, then they perform the best that they've ever performed. And so it's a paradox. So if you don't try, if you stop trying, then often that's when you do your best. So yeah, you have to let go and trust. I hope

Aninder: everybody listening to this is able to get that in their life at some point. Trying is the only way to do it, but stopping to try and getting it is like the way to actually do it. Ah, geez, such a catch- 22 around these things, man. Always. That's life. That's navigating. That's Darwinism. That's like survival of the fittest. Like the ones who figure it out will thrive better than the others, I think. I think it's

really important what you said there, that that is life. And it's something that we have to try to be quite mindful of as well is that the whole thing is this journey, right? And again, that's why it's important to focus on the process, not the outcome. Let's say, for example, that you're on like a fitness journey and you want to add 10 kilograms of muscle. So you go and you start doing push-ups. If you immediately have this expectation and you're focusing on that 10 kilograms of muscle, even after six months of doing it, and you might not see that many results, you're going to give up because your whole goal is that end result. If, however, you develop a relationship with the

activity itself that's enjoyable, You like that you're investing in yourself. You like that you're getting up every morning to do it. You like that even when you feel bad, you're doing it. If you fall in love with that process, then over time, you're going to look back one day and you're not going to see the same person. And so the same goes for this paragliding journey too. If you can, remember that this is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And you have to immerse yourself and focus on the small things you can control. Focus on just thermaling nicely, enjoying your flight, looking out for birds. Suddenly, one day you will look back. And if you remind yourself of where you were, you'll see this like a quantum

leap. that you've taken. It's incredible. If you think about from the first days you learned to fly, how even a Fufi was, we call them Fufis here, like a sledder, was incredible. And then suddenly you're flying 10 minutes and an hour, and then it's just incredible to look back. And if you don't look back, sometimes you don't realize how far you've come. So sometimes people feel like they're not making progress, but they're making huge progress. And then the other thing I would also encourage people to do is really try to dive deep actually on this mental side of things. Because I think the more that like in one conversation like this, Obviously, there's a lot of things that people I hope can take

away. But it's not like you've listened once and suddenly have all the answers. For me, this has been a process of maybe five or six years of really deeply thinking about a lot of this, starting to apply it, then failing at it, and then realizing and then becoming more self-aware in those moments. And it's an ongoing thing. And so don't expect to suddenly be able to just change things. Be open to this beautiful process. But also trust that if you put in the time and trust if you immerse yourself in the stuff, if you learn more about it in garden practice, that you will see amazing results. Like you will. Paragliding is just the most incredible reward. How many books did you

Aninder: read to get to this stage in life, Grant? And more than that, like why aren't you famous yet? Because this is pure wisdom coming from your mouth right across. And it's such a music to listen to. Yeah, thanks, man. I can't take any credit. I feel so grateful again for that time that I

was in Sweden, in that time when I couldn't fly, in the time that I had to dig deep and rediscovered reading. I read a lot of books, all sorts of different types. It was really just a way of, at first it was out of desperation to try and dig myself out of there. But slowly as I started reading more and more, it started to ignite something in me. And so really it's just a culmination. The beautiful thing about books is that it's like having a conversation with, can be someone that lived a thousand years ago. And you're literally like reading their words. And so there's all this wisdom that's available out there. It's what's changed people like Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela. And it's really

the... I like to think of it as like a software upgrade for the brain, is that you have all of this stuff there and you can follow any journey that you want. But the deeper that you go, I think that the more that it helps you. I'm just really what I'm trying to say is that I'm like so grateful to have discovered that. And I'm more than happy to like share with people if they want to contact me at some point, like some of the books that I recommend, because like really it's changed my life. And I think it can change everyone's lives. And yeah, but I'm grateful for that. So a lot of

it, it's not really my wisdom. It's just the stuff that's been connecting in my brain through all of that beautiful stuff that has been created for us by humans. No, 100% agreed. But I think, of course, being aware of upgrading your brain or the need, feeling the need to do it is the

Aninder: key. I think like the scrolling. Let me just say the touchscreen phones. God damn it. Why did silicon exist that we could make these things in the world? Yeah, the Stoics, the ancient Roman philosophers, they believe that in every challenge is an opportunity. The obstacle is the way. And

so the phone was a problem for me as well at some stage, like just being automatically drawn into it without wanting to. So I moved the apps that I don't want to automatically open, like Instagram and things like that. I moved them to like the third page of my screen. And then I have the Kindle app. on the front page of the screen. And so I think physical books, there's something about them, but I found it brilliant just to have the Kindle app because then I can read wherever I am. If I'm sitting having coffee in the morning or whatever, then I can just read a little

bit. And so instead of automatically opening up like Instagram or whatever, now it's more automatic just to open up a book. So that's a little hack if you do want to try to read a bit more. Such a good life hack, I would say. Another one of those gems from Grant Smith Inventory coming

Aninder: to the audiences and kind of adding up those podcasts. But do you scroll? I'm very curious because I know that scrolling makes it difficult to read books. But do you scroll on phone, on Instagram, like on social media is what I'm saying. Yeah. Occasionally I get caught in the trap,

but it's quite rare these days. I've made quite a concerted effort not to. We've all experienced it. It's that automatic start and you actually feel really bad afterwards. Again, this is not a prescription. This is just what works for me. I don't watch TV anymore. I don't really watch Netflix. I like to just focus on... doing things that I find more intrinsically rewarding. And it's so easy to get, I have been a scroller in the past. I've had many sort of addictive behaviors in the past. And so it's an endless battle, but it's definitely something that I try and stay away from. I think it wastes a lot of time. It depletes your ability to concentrate. There's a thing called the tension residue.

And that is when you try to switch tasks from one thing to the next, actually a little bit of your intention sticks to that last thing that you were on. And so I like, like when I do my YouTube videos and stuff, normally I wake up quite early in the morning to do like the scripting or the editing or whatever. Then I don't open my phone at all. Not to look at WhatsApp, not to look at emails, not to look at anything because it's so clear that if I do that, Even just the thought of it, if I see a notification, it's like I can't really get into focus or into flow in

doing my other stuff. So I try to really tear that stuff out of my life as much as possible. And what I'm not doing at the moment, but I want to get back to, even with things like WhatsApp, is having a set time where you look at it. Because what can happen is if you're standing in the queue at the shop or you're in the car or you're somewhere, it just becomes this automatic thing and you don't actually realize how often you're doing it. If you set rules up for yourself, I'll only look at it like every even hour for 10 minutes or whatever. That's what I was doing in the past. I

said 10 AM, 12 AM, whatever. Then if it's not that time, then there's like this conscious decision not to do it. And that actually was really good for my mental well-being and clarity of thinking and all of that stuff. So I might actually return to that now that I'm talking to you about it.

Aninder: I'm so glad this episode can be the trigger for you and hopefully for a lot of other people. Because I remember coming across this, another podcast that I was listening to, I don't remember the name, but it said that, I think it was Jay Shetty or something, where he said, I have a rule where I look at my phone only at the cupboard. Like I have to stand in front of the cupboard or at the dressing room or something, and then I'm only allowed to touch my phone. if i'm not in front of that place physically then i do not have the rights to touch my phone but that is such a good way

because you can only stand because he said that he has to stand there so lying down and scrolling is convenient or sitting and just aimlessly getting the dopamine is also convenient but standing and having an intent like you do where it's a specific timing is like such a good way to train your mind into not liking an effort, which is not that rewarding anyways. Like it's a pseudo reward which we get, which vanishes after a few seconds or minutes or depending upon the intensity of it, I would say. Yeah, absolutely. And so those things can be flow experiences. But

like I talk about that empty flow experiences, because at the end of that experience, it doesn't increase the complexity of yourself. You don't grow as a person. So you're left kind of feeling like shallow and drained. Yeah. I'm laughing for the fact that watching porn and, yeah,

Aninder: like, jerking off in that regard is the perfect example to this. It's gonna be the fucking fantasy of your lifetime when you're in the zone. But as soon as you finish... Like, you don't even want to look at it a second more and you want to kill all the screens in front of you and just walk away from that thing. And that is exactly what scrolling or whatever is your poison of choice is doing to you, but in a very minuscule amount that A, keeps it legal, and B, takes you on a guilt trip that you're doing something wrong. So it's literally as simple as that,

identifying. Yeah. you touch on a really important actually point yeah it's a little bit of a different subject but it is important with all of

this stuff is that so basically like with your dopamine system in your brain when you have this very quick release dopamine so you have these receptors in your brain that they like to talk talk about them as like little docking stations and when you have quick easy dopamine your brain floods with this stuff. The brain then actually says, oh, there's an overload of dopamine in the brain. So it retracts the docking station so that these things can't latch on there, the neurotransmitters. And so pleasure and pain, they come from the same part of the brain. So what happens then is that now when that artificial dopamine is depleted, the brain can't absorb any more dopamine. So now you have a deficit of

dopamine. So now you need to do something to increase it. So what do you do? You scroll more or you eat chocolate or you do any of those things. And so over time, what happens is that the normal state of your brain is always trying to find homeostasis, that balance. The normal state of your brain actually tips into pain and so addiction that's actually what's happened is that over time you've restructured your brain so that it's tipped to its normal baseline is now on the pain baseline and the only way to feel normal is to use whatever the drug of choice is. That can be porn, it can be Instagram, it can be normal drugs, alcohol, whatever it is. And so this kind of addictive process is actually

shaping your brain. And a lot of people, it's quite hard for a lot of people because they don't understand why can't I just not do this thing? Or people are like, why can't that guy just not stop drinking or stop drugs or whatever? That's because literally they're suffering. And the only way to bring them back to normal is through that thing. And the reason why it's interesting for me to understand that is because when you can understand that cycle, then for me now, even with things like cheap chocolate, if I think of doing it habitually, I'm like, oh man, I'm just going to spike this whole process in my brain. And so it gives me more motivation if I'm trying not to cut out some of those addictive

behaviors like Instagram and stuff, not to do them. And then if I have done them, Every now and again, it'll happen. You rarely notice the change. I've noticed my well-being. I notice how my sleep changes. I don't sleep as well or I wake up in the night. Next day, I feel like a bit of a hangover. So it's quite interesting to see how that really affects you. But yeah, maybe just a little side note there on what's actually happening. And they say that if you're not sure about a habit, if you don't know if it's like a problem for you or if you're like a bit addicted

to it or not, they say try stopping it for 21 days. Just stop it for 21 days. Just give yourself that time and then see. And very often you'll find out quite early whether or not it's a problem or not. Yeah, yeah, easy. And I think just for the disclaimer part, one of the things that I know we've

Aninder: been stressing over airtime is the answer to all your questions, but there is a very thin line where passion slash obsession is crossed. And okay, obsession is a necessity. You're talking about Mamba mentality and like the big ones. You need to be obsessed to get and go out there and practice and prioritize it in your life and everything. But there is a point where airtime can also be the drug of choice. And I probably am guilty as well where I... And I know a lot of pilots are where you put a lot of things online and making sure that you get to fly as much as you want in

your life. And could be equipment, could be places, could be like you prioritize flying more than you realistically should, because it is the same dopamine cycle release that we are talking about in other planes. So airtime is an answer to a lot of things, but sometimes it is good to look back and take a moment and see if airtime is actually the answer to this one or not. Yeah, that is quite a tricky one, I think for all

of us. And whether or not it's a negative thing, I guess that again, it comes down to personal choice and what people want out of their life. But I do know from my own experience that being completely obsessed with it and then doing it all the time to not having it was like a huge shock to my system and to everything, to my mental health and all of that. And so I think it is something to be- Yeah, yes. So that is something to be aware of whether it's good or bad. Again, that's like a judgment call which every person has to make for themselves. I think if you have a bigger meaning to

it all again, like if it's like self-development through paragliding and it's helping you to grow in other aspects of your life, then I think you can take those lessons into other aspects and it can enrich your life as opposed to maybe being something that you use to escape. from life. Although I mean that again, it's not necessarily good or bad. But yeah, there's something to be aware of. For sure. It's something to be aware of. And just quickly, I thought about the one of the ways to get good dopamine in life is by doing hard things. So challenge gives us good dopamine. So for example, like cold showers, one of the reasons why they are quite good is because they spike dopamine, but in a good way. I mean,

they have a lot of other benefits. That also teaches you how to control your mind and to let go and not to resist to cold exposure, things like that. But also just exercise, physical exercise. It releases good stuff because it's good for your body and it's difficult that it's much harder to become addicted to. Of course, some people can do, but it's much harder to get really addicted to something like alcohol or drugs, to things like exercise. So a lot of us want comfort in life and we shy away from challenging ourselves. I think paragliding can really challenge ourselves, can be something that we use to challenge us, but trying to do other things in your life that helps to challenge, I think can transfer

into paragliding too. Walk, park on the far part of the parking lot, walk, take cold showers, I don't know, find things that are difficult and do them. Go watch David Goggin's videos and try and implement them in your life. he's extreme but yeah he has a point I think to push yourself but yeah it's all a personal choice like I said none of it's a prescription it all depends people are sitting there and they're like want to feel more fulfilled in life or they feel like they want to grow or they want to do all these things, then obviously these things are like a path that you can take. It's like the Shaolin monks. They are really good with pain and with self-discipline and with self-mastery and all of

this stuff. And it's a path you can take. They're not saying you must do this, but it is a path where they've shown that you can overcome, you can master the mind and you can master yourself. And I think paragliding can be a medium for that too. Sometimes I think, Grant, is going in a cave a

Aninder: solution to all the world's problems? It can be to an extent. I don't think if we all hide away it will help because we need each other. Like we

do need each other. Actually, that's one of the most important things in life is good human relationships. But yes, doing like little vision quests or things where you challenge yourself, you go out in nature with limited supplies and you get hungry, like be cold, do all of these things, you'll see that you're capable of a lot more than what you give yourself credit for. Okay, let me rephrase that. Don't go to a cave, go to

Aninder: Sweden instead. Yeah, go to Sweden. If anybody wants to challenge themselves physically and mentally, go to Sweden. Yeah, or any of the Scandinavian countries. Man, it's like dark eight months of the year out of 12. Not exaggerating. I'm the living proof. I signed up for it.

Especially when you come from somewhere like South Africa, the contrast is so big that it's, yeah, it was really tough. Yeah, it's a beautiful country, great country, just weather-wise, very hard to survive. Tell me about it, man. I traded the mountains of beer billing

Aninder: and all the effortless transitioning that comes with it to being blown away after first thermal. And I don't think I'm yet to find more than three or four thermals in a row in my six years of living here because... Yeah, that's how the world is on this side of the globe. Yeah, tricky.

Yeah. Oh, man, this is so nice. And I wish we can endlessly keep on diving deep into this. But the only bad part about this talk, as I like to put it

Aninder: across when I'm having such a holistic conversation, is that it has to come to an end at some point because it's a podcast episode. For those of you who have stuck with us so far, thank you for being such loyal listeners. That's very cute. Do consider dropping in a rating and a subscribe, not just to me, but also to Grant's YouTube, which will be there out in the show notes, along with all of his book recommendations, so that you can start your journey to being a flying Yoda very soon enough, I would say. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Anything else you'd like to add on, Grant, before we wrap up for the day for now? Because definitely there's a part two coming. I don't know when, I don't know how, but we'll

just let it happen and let life work its way for us. We'll just go with the flow, huh? You have to. That's what we sign off on. Nothing from me. It's

been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thanks for listening to me drone on for all this time. It's been nice to be able to share some of this stuff. And yeah, look forward to chatting to you again sometime. I think this conversation was a perfect description of being in the flow. Like

Aninder: the time just flew by. Yes, you're on the right track. It's been highly enjoyable and I feel like we've both grown through this conversation.

The nice thing about conversations is just that it allows you to really formulate those thoughts and deepen your understanding. So... Hopefully we can continue this conversation with the listeners. Yeah, I'm really open if you put this stuff into the show notes. I have an email list as well. The fly100.co people could sign up for where I want to go deeper into that stuff. So if people want to contact me and ask questions and stuff, like please feel free. Really, it helps to expand my own thinking on this stuff and helps me to understand also like where it is that I can actually help people. They say, if you want to get better at something, start teaching it. I think that is the mantra of key here,

Aninder: because of course, this is another thing that I would like to talk to audiences about that choosing your paragliding teacher. Of course, the first one is a bit tricky because you don't know what's going on, but The ones after, be it your tour guides, be it your specific course instructors or something is very important. And people like Grant do exist in their world, but it's just harder to find them. However, here we have a gem of a person himself. So if you are looking to enhance your skills and a beach and some warm weather with it, then head over to his website, which will of course be listed. And yeah, go ahead, experience the magic firsthand yourself and let us know how it goes in the comments,

either on YouTube, on his channel or on Spotify or wherever you stream or wherever you blow your data up to get this.

All righty, friends. On that note, I think we are good to call it a day. So yeah, man, thank you once again. And until next time, stay awesome.

Yeah, man, thank you. And this podcast is an amazing contribution to the community as well. So thank you for that. And we'll chat soon.