Helmut Schrempf : Modernizing SIV Courses: How This New Training Method Can Help You Master Glider Control and Improve Paragliding Safety

Aninder: what is up everyone welcome back to paragliding atlas podcast in case you're new here i'm your host aninder singh and today marks the very first guest episode of 2025 and guess what guys i kid you not the content that we have for you today is truly one of its kind Now, I know I'm using some big words and there are endless ways to hype up any episode that comes out. But honestly, this one actually stands out from the ones we have done before. And the reason why I'm saying so is quite simple, actually. Because the content that you're about to hear can truly redefine the way we take to sky is in years to come. And no, that's not because we have miraculously stumbled upon some groundbreaking

technology or experienced a sudden eureka moment. but instead we are learning how to better control our paragliders in a whole new manner that only a few had thought about or visualized and even fewer were able to do it but finally we have someone who says hey I'm going to go out and put it on a public portal and let everybody have access to this knowledge through the medium of this show Now to illustrate this a little bit further, I want you to picture this. Rewind the clock back about two decades when R&D on paraglider wings and accessories was just getting started. It was like more or less in its initial testing phases and hit and try method was one of the ways to go. But over the years, we have seen

significant advancements. Wing designs have evolved dramatically. New technologies have made them more efficient. Harness manufacturers have redefined their products repeatedly, going back and forth with new and innovative designs. However, amidst all of these changes, there's one thing that has remained constant. And that is the way we have trained pilots to handle their wing. And to put it quite simply, the SIV training, the safety training that we have for pilots, has quite simply not seen an upgrade. Except for a few tweaks and turns here and there, which are basically done on a personal level with an instructor. However, still, the core principles of wing control have largely remained unchanged since their inception. And that is why today's episode is so exciting. Because finally, we have an instructor

in the industry who has stepped up to say, hey, there's a better way of doing this. And this episode is all about sharing that upgrade. A whole new innovative approach to how we control the wing, feel its movements, and eventually make the skies a more safer and more fun place to be. And not to forget, a more intuitive place to navigate while practicing the art of flight. So even though this episode was recorded quite a while ago, we purposely decided to release it as one of the first ones of the years, quite simply because there could not be a better way to kick off 2025 than something unique, innovative, and inspiring that sets the tone for all the exciting content we have lined up for you guys in months

to come. So without further ado, let's dive right into this gem of a production. And as I always say, if you have enjoyed the content that we have brought to you so far, do consider doing your own bit. Smashing that like and subscribe button or dropping in a rating wherever possible. as these small acts of kindness go a super long way in helping us grow the show, reach more people, and eventually make paragliding a more safer and more enjoyable sport to be. And now, let me introduce to you today's guest, Helmut Schrempf. a dynamic coach, an innovator of some sorts, but most importantly, someone who's passionately reimagining SIV training as we know it. And this happens to be another one of those

unfiltered and honest discussions about the future of paragliding safety training. So tune in, and I hope you like it.

Helmut Schrempf, what an honour to have you on Panagliding Atlas. Welcome to the show. Thanks a lot. Nice to get invited. We are so thankful you took out time from your super busy schedule and you're making lives in the air better by training people. The pleasure is all ours. But to begin with, Helmut, 20 years of flying, 10 years of dreaming about this, and finally, last two of actually realizing this. What is this brand new, exciting thing that you have in the industry? Just let our audiences know. What is safety pilot coaching all about? All right,

let's talk about, let's start in the, what we, it was 10 years ago, was just thinking about the maneuvers, what we do, teaching in SOEs and realize people coming, flying the maneuvers and sometimes leaving an SOE be more scared than before. And I start thinking about what I have to change, what can we do? And it comes from other sports in the end. If you think about skiing, mountain biking, anything else, sports with movements. The idea was going back to the pilot, like how I move in a harness. And it's already 20 years ago when I started teaching beginner courses. And we have been sitting in a simulator and just trying to show them how to do a turn. And if you sit in a simulator like this, And the

people sitting inside move. And I just grabbed the arm and I feel the tension in the muscles, what they had there. And it was like, for me, with this tension, you can't do a turn precise. And from this moment, I started thinking and I realized later on as well, it's happened in every maneuver. every new maneuver, what you try to fly. And so I start from the pilot up to the maneuvers. This is the main idea. Let's first bring the pilot in the shape that he can perform the maneuvers. And you need something of this to start slowly and going further and further. This is the basic idea of safety pilot coaching. That means every wing already can do nearly every maneuver. The wing don't have to learn it as well.

Yeah. I already know it. It's more the connection from the pilot to the harness. And this is the basic of safety pilot coaching. Love it, man. I

Aninder: think the way you explained it is so beautiful that wings are capable of a lot and what eventually is made out of it depends a lot on the pilot. And then this ideology of training the pilot to be good enough or to handle those maneuvers or situations in flight, I think it's such a wholesome way of increasing the safety for that person in flight. Just since this is an audio-only podcast, I think the simulator that you mentioned is basically hanging the harness with strings and then sitting in that and trying to move it. Is that correct? Yeah, that's right. And this is

giving something more together in this. If you think about if you're in flight and stuff like this, it was like, to explain a little bit what I mean is we have, we learned in early times, me too, in the time when I start, there is something happen in the air. You have to block it, don't let move your wing, keep it above you. And then when I start flying acro, it was more like work with the system, not against it. And we have, let's say, like in certification tests, okay, we're watching on ABCD certification, CCC, and get the information from the wing, what the reactions are inside collops, speeded collops, front collops, spirals, whatever. My job as a trainer is to create a pilot who can reduce

the reaction of the wing. Like on the side collapse. In the certification tests, that means you collapse, you release, you do nothing. Let the system work. And in the last years, it comes more and more out that we should go into the collapsed side with the weight shift. I know there's a big discussion about is it good or not, but in the end, we are based on physics, so we can't work against physics. And that shows us less reaction in the trainings. And sure, we have to be careful because we simulate collapses from pulling downside from down. In the true world, we are not in a clean air. We are moving air with different reactions. What should we train? We can train the wing collapsing

straight above us and take a look. How can we reduce the reaction? And this is the most important thing. Work with the system. Let the system work for you and take the time and realize when can you do a right input to stabilize. And that's not all the time at the first moment. That means you cannot react on something what hasn't happened. And there comes a lot of reactions out like what we see now. We have troubles with site collapses where people As soon as they can, steering opposite side, shifting the weight and turning in the opposite side. And I think that's getting more dangerous than the collapse by themselves. And for me, the collapse on the wing is more like a protection. It's not a bad thing.

Sure, it's not nice because you can't sit straight anymore. But in the end, it saves us. We had many years ago, we got an actual wing which was closing the cells when you go on the brakes. It stays inflated. It stays inflated. It was super nice for connections. But when this wing starts shooting, you wasn't able to break them, to stop them. It was impossible. If your wing shoots in front of you and you get a front collapse, you have to say thanks in the end. Because if it will shoot further, it can fall in the canopy and that's worse than a collapse. Just

Aninder: out of curiosity, why couldn't the brakes hold it back? Was it physically impossible to prevent that kind of force? The brake

pressure getting that hard and if the canopy cannot de- inflate, the air cannot go out, it stay in a solid profile. That means you can change the angle on the trailing edge, but the movement, the energy is still in. That's the good thing on a power glider. If the air removes, destroy a little bit the profile and you are able to stall it. I think somebody told me collapse is a safety mechanism that modern day products have

Aninder: existed. But this also brings me to a point that I see more and more designers pushing towards collapse resistant wings. So are we all looking just for a sweet spot where they are harder to collapse, but then they should collapse? We have Rast, we have Reflex, we have two liners which are making it harder. So as a buyer or as somebody who wants to go out and have fun in the sky, Should you look for more collapsible, easily collapsible wing or more difficult to collapse wings? Or is it a trade-off that you decide yourself? There is a lot of things to talk

about. Let's start with what you say, Rust. For sure, the wing is able to collapse in the front of the leading edge. It means not he should, the wing should stay completely up. It's more the trailing edge should stay stable because I'm not a designer for wings. I just see reactions, fly the wings and see what happened in the trainings. And I only can talk about my experience, what I saw and what I see, what has happened in the developing. And we're talking about these reflex profiles, especially in speed bar flying as well, what the wing is creating. We have to be careful a little bit if we talk about reflex. It's not a true reflex like this. What has happened in the last year is what I think is

because I flow as well in the beginning, the R11 and from ozone and the swings. And it was already happened in this time. It was 2011, 2012. And we saw there already some different movements of the wing. And after in the time it comes down until the A sector. That means really A-Wings showing us some movement was what happened eight, 10 years ago, only in the high advanced things. And what every manufacturer tries to do is make the wings more solid to stay stable. That's good as well, but it's a different flying style now. If I think back about 15 years in school, we teach the people, if you keep brake pressure all the time, nothing happens. You can control the wing. It was maybe wrong at this time too. So

we as well learned something that means We have wings. If we go on speedbar, we have to start with speedbar. Let's go with speedbar in two liners and bring it down to the lower sectors. Okay. so what is happening let's talk about the two liners if you fly in speed bomb we have to go on the b handles that means you release the brakes they give us no break on it and then you go on the b handles and try to correct your wing and stabilize it or react on it why we have to go back to the b handles because we create in Speedbar a little bit of an S-shaped profile. That means the shark nose,

the leading edge, is working against something that's pulling upwards. They try to keep it nose down. But if something tries to push the leading edge downwards, on the trailing edge, these S- shapes create opposite movement and to stabilize the canopy. And if you go on the B lines, you help them to make this asphalt bigger and stabilize and break it a little bit. If you go on the brakes, you create on the trailing edge a ratio, and this ratio creates a lift. If you got a lift upwards on the trailing edge, what will happen in front will collapse. And this is how it works. That means that's why we changed to B steering. You can fly faster because you're not in a brake. You create not that much lift. If

you go on the Bs, that means you keep your wing more solid, more stable above you. The same movements are now sometimes already in the A category. We have A wings that have a little S shape and the same movements, but then the thickness of the profile and the deepness of the profile is that big that it makes not that big difference if you go shortly on the brakes. In the high B sector, It's already in. If you go on the brakes on the wrong moment, you can create the collapse. It's more solid. It's tested as well in the certification. You have to keep it and

it's working. But it's different if you test it in still clean air or you are in moving air. This S shape already is working as well if you are not on speedbar. It's a little bit tricky. Let's talk a little bit about S-Shape for our audiences who don't know what S-Shape is. Can you please

Aninder: describe that and then we can hear. Alright. S-Shape means an automatic stabilization from the wing if the nose is tucked downwards. That means

the profile works by itself against the collabs. This profile, it's especially more in the center. Let's talk about 60% of the center and in the outside, it's less. Center cells are maintaining the S shape profile more than the ring tips are in their European shape. Let's say, depending on the construction, how much of the profile have this shape. It's sometimes more in the middle. It's more it going outside, getting less and something like this. Let's stay on two liners first. If you have two lines, A and B, if the airflow around you changed the direction and it's coming upward movement or downward movement of the air and the wind tried to go into the stream, that means maybe the angle changed and the

wind tried to go a little bit downwards with the nose to change this angle. Especially, it's not on speed bar now. I'm just talking in normal flight. That means the nose go forward and try to, if the A lines go a little bit down, what will happen on the B lines? They try to stay up. That means it's the same angle for a short moment like you stay on speed bar. Very true. And we see that already. We have a lot of videos on Instagram, YouTube, where you see people flying with different kinds of two liners in a turn and the outside wing try to correct the air. It's trying to, it

feels like a movement forward. And the outside wing go forward and the pilot starts to stop it. We learned in old times, if the wing moves fast, given short, hard input. Mhm. That was the old techniques like. And this short input, if this profile tries to stabilize himself and use pilot react and give a short input on the outside brake, you feel first there's not much resistance, nearly nothing. And in the next moment comes a lot of pressure because on the trailing edge, you create this ratio and you get a lift upwards. And this makes like the movement, you pull, you feel the pressure, you stop. And this short movements with the hard, short inputs creates the lift on the trailing edge up. And then you got the

collapse as well, injected by the pilot. Oh, damn, this is so fascinating. I never thought that trailing the lift point goes back to

Aninder: trailing edge because this makes so much sense now. And this has happened on a lot of videos and they get a lot of videos to watch and say,

hey, can you take a look what has happened? I say, yeah, it's the new wings. And there is something, you can feel it maybe, people flying in C category, high B. And as well, my girlfriend, I told her, you have two options now. Fly with more brakes on both sides and you will feel it's more solid. It feels stable. Or the other thing is leave your hands up and let the profile work for you. If you're a little bit on the brakes in troubling conditions, you feel the wing is moving much more. This is a very important thing now. Keep a little bit of contact in flying. That's

important to do it. But it's depending on the wing for sure. But if you go a little bit on the brake, that means you get a little pull on the trailing edge. That means a little pull removes this little S shape. 100%. So, it cannot work anymore by itself. But to stabilize the wing, it's to less brake. That means this little brakeway, it's not nice anymore. It can make you more nervous in the air, more movement than it is in the air. So, there is not anymore the time to fly a little bit on these brakes. The second thing is, if you go a little bit more on the brakes, I'm talking

about 20-25% of brake in double-end conditions, we have to learn steering differently. We have to learn steering more with releasing brakes, to make a turn with releasing outside. Because if you go on a double-end condition and you're already on 25% of brake, and then you enter a turn with pulling more brake, you create a very tiny pendulum outside of yourself. Right? Because you have no energy anymore in the system or less. Please explain. Creating pendulum outside of yourself. What does that say? That means if you have about 25% of break, You shift your weight to the inside. Then you go a little bit more on the inside break. That means the wind goes lower on the inside and tries to

make a movement left side forward if you put on the left side. You are working on the opposite side with your body. That means you're going outside right side. It's a double pendulum. But if this pendulum is going outside and it's too less and you can't do the turn anymore because you're going to the little bit outside to the right side if you do a left turn. And if you want to turn further, your pendulum is working again. Your pendulum in the center of the wing. All right. And then the pendulum is working against you. Because it's not stopping in the center. It tries to go to the other side. Then you feel, why is it not turning? And you pull more. on the inside. And then you are close to a stall point with

about 50% of break because your pendulum is not working anymore and you lose speed in the whole system, not just in the wing, as well in yourself. And this thing is like we have to learn more with releasing. You're only able if you control your body. If you're sitting with full tension, full muscle power, it's super hard to release because you have to work against your muscles. And now it comes together. You understand? Why we have to change the movements, what we do, and we have to go back to basics and learn in basic maneuver our own body movements. All right? I somehow

Aninder: feel it is so important for us to bring out this point. We as pilots in our community do not spend enough time on A-wings. Everybody is so keen to upgrade to a high B as soon as they start flying that those wings bring more anxiety into flying than they bring value, at least in the early hours. And A-wings are the ones which will allow you to fly as relaxed as possible, sometimes hands-free as well, which I do not recommend by any means. I'm just letting you know the relaxation behind flying A-wings. So I think inherently ES community just made it that first 50 hours have to be on A or some certain threshold. then pilots will be much more relaxed as the progress in their own flight because they've seen the

easy side of flying as well in the beginning of their career, I believe. Yes. Okay, because for me, we have some A-wings. Let's talk about this.

We have some A-wings that have long steering ways and everyone has his own sense of movements and say, okay, if I pull my hand down about 25 centimeters like this and I was waiting for a reaction. I'll be waiting for a reaction. If I do something, I want to have a reaction. If the first 25 centimeters happen nothing, I pull more and then I learn I have to pull a lot more and more that there's moving something. And there comes as well something to gather what I say about harnesses. And for me, if I think about, if I have to calculate how a system works. 60% is the

harness, 30% is the wing and 10% is the pilot. And that's not what I say about skills. I say just the system is working. The harness is much more important for how a system is working. And for the pilot, the 10%, what I say, depending a girl with 50 kilos, it's much more harder to shift the weight than if you have 100 kilos. It makes more reaction. And as well, this is all, you have longer arms, shorter arms, it's different layers on the arms. And if we think about harnesses in the schools, what I know, and the German Austrian market style, it means a lot of weight shifting

in schools. Means we do a lot and say rolling, wing a little wing over as we fly. Come on, shift your weight and shift your weight more. I think a lot of pilots out there know already the harnesses are blocked. You're not any more able to shift that much weight. Yeah, we have crossed. We have the harnesses, if I think back in the time when I started flying in my first Acro flights, we had carabiner attachment about 32, 36 centimeters above the seat board. Much lower than now. And in the competition harnesses, the cross lines lock your harness for flying on speed bar. What's blocking your harness? That means if you go on the pod harnesses for competition as well, like in the lightweight harnesses,

one or two to have it ready, that you can adjust a line to block your weight shifting for flying on speed bar. We agree. There's a setting in the

Aninder: harness that makes it more or less sensitive. And all the new harnesses, I have to pick out one now. It's like very easy. If you try to weight shift

in this harness, you will see there's not much happened for weight shifting. And the question for me was, we're talking in the schools, tell the people shift more weight and the manufacturers go there and block more and more the harnesses. For me, everyone was talking, like Michi Nesla, saying, wow, that's hard, yeah? Because they block it more and more. We can't move the body more and more. It's harder to move the body, to shift the weight. And then say, okay, you're right. That's maybe not good. And then I start thinking what has happened about efficiency and glide range the last 10 years. A lot. We're getting faster. We're getting more dynamic in the wings. Maybe there was a

communication problem. The manufacturers see if we leave the harnesses full on with weight shifting, the wings get too dynamic and are unable to control. And now we come to the problem. We learn in school, shift full weight, shift your weight, shift more your weight. Then you try it with your harness in the air and try to move your body. And then you come to a point where the harness say, and to this point you can do it. And then, done. And sure, you can press with full muscle power over the harness and get more reaction. What is happen if you go over the harness from the weight shifting, you need muscle power, you need tension in the body. How precise can you use your brake? And then people learn blocking

and blocking. And instead to learn using the break to pull it right, if you have to think like in a little role, like little wing overs. If you have someone with the A-wing, there's a little bit of feeling for the brakes and you tell them, shift your weight, pull the brake, do a little bit on it and change to side. If you do it three times, you are higher than 90 degrees and you're starting wing overs. If I'm sitting down as teacher, I'm scared. For sure. If it's the fourth, fifth flight and you start with these little wing overs and some of us are feeling and do it

right, he's super quick, goes to 90 degrees. We have the problem saying, okay, I'm scared of it as teacher. And that's right. Because after 90 degrees, it's easy to get collapses outside with strawberts and stuff like this. But you're not learning the right movement of pulling a brake. And more important is releasing a brake. If you think about nearly let's go back to a collapse because I think that's a movement, but a lot of people know what has happened. If you think for a collapse, you've got a 50% collapse, you go on the side, the wing starts rolling and get a nick moment and moving forward and you start breaking the opposite side. That means you have to pull the opposite side. The wing is a little

bit in front of you. And then when your pendulum works and you understand that you have to release the brake, right? What is the exit of the maneuver? It's not the pulling, it's the releasing moment. Very cool. Letting it fly, basically. Yeah, depends. Because if the collapse stays still in, it means you have to precise your releasing. If you stay too long on the brake, you immediately turn to the opposite side. That wasn't happened 15 years ago. Okay? This is the moment. This is the efficiency of the wings change our movements. What should we do? Why should we react differently? And it's more important, the releasing part. If you think about as well, if you do a turn, right? Just a normal 90

degrees turn for landing approach. Doesn't matter. You go in, you pull, the exit of the turn is releasing. For me, it's like barroclining is a four-dimensional sport. It sounds a little bit crazy, maybe. It's not important where to entry a turn, but it's more important where to exit, right? The United Greece turn, it's more important where I come out of this turn. And this steering is the releasing moment on the brake. That means the releasing is much more important than the pulling. Yeah. Before we move on to the next topic, I just want to quickly touch upon the

Aninder: fact that when you were giving advice to your girlfriend about flying either with a little bit of brakes on or no brakes on, on two-liners, this does make a lot of sense, 100%. But first question, before we go to lower category wings, how do you... Just a second, sorry. Because it's a

girlfriend, it was a mentor 7. It's not a high-aspect ratio wing. But I just want to look at this direction from a two-liner perspective. They

Aninder: are super stable, which don't talk back to you that often. How do you anticipate collapses or rough air, or how do you stay in the best possible position to have an ideal reaction or close to ideal reaction when it happens, if you're not on the brakes at all? If you're letting the profile do the S-shaped thing all throughout the flight before the collapse happens, actually. Yeah. We're talking about active flying.

Exactly. In the trainings, we tell them, stay relaxed, follow the movement of the wing. It doesn't matter if it's a call-ups, a negative spin, go with the wing, go with the flow. And I focused on myself flying in rough conditions on speed bar. No, I'm not that relaxed in the harness. I keep a little tension in my body. I stay in the harness, leaning back, stay connected to the harness. Try in the position with tension to realize when is something happen. And as soon I feel I lose tension, maybe on the left side, I release my tension in the body and follow the wing. That means I stay on tension and I feel my left carabiner drop down. I lose the tension. I release my tension in the body on my hip and let the

wing take from my body what he needs. Okay. And there is somebody say, I go active. If I feel I lose the pressure, I press in and say, yeah, it's working. But the question is, do you think with active pressing inside this side, the wing get exactly that what he needs? Most of the time not. And this is where people get a lot of roll moments or rolling moments and pitch moments out in flying on speed bar. They hear a lot. I cannot fly straight on speed bar. I start rolling all the time. This is especially these tensions. Makes a lot of sense. But let's say when you're

Aninder: connected with B risers, you're on bar, B riser is the most efficient way of handling it. With brakes, it's a whole different way of active flying. With Bs also, you have to put in a lot of effort in correcting or anticipating. Distortion of S shape is a little less on the B risers. I completely agree with that because they're connected at a different point in the trailing edge or in the canopy. But does it make sense to stay more active on B risers otherwise as well when you're not on the bar? Because they distort the shape a lot. I fly a lot of time just on the B

risers without bar because it's the same. It's depending on the conditions for sure. And I use the Beezer Swallow just going straight away. If I want to have the full efficiency of my wing, I fly on the Beezer Swallow without speed bar because it's working well. And there is no reason if it's normal air, why I should go on the brakes. It's a changing of the flying style and it changed. I go on the Beezer Swallow and I use it like brakes, just in a shorter way. And on the two liners, depending, I use it in a little big ratio, pulling it back or go a little bit on tension

on the B risers. It get more rough air. I got a little bit more tension to be on point if I have to do something. And sure, there are moments where the air is too rough and you got a collapse. If you got a call up and you need the B risers, you have to change to the breaks. That means that's a training moment to change it. But if you have a call ups, most of the time in the first moment, your angle of attack get higher and you create a pendulum. If the wing is behind you, you can say thank you because you have time to release your B risers and go on the breaks. That means the pendulum is a

good movement because it gives you time. Oh, 100%. But what I'm wondering is, especially in high-aspect ratio wing, is B-Line the new

Aninder: brake line for optimal flying performance? It's an option to help the wing stay solid above you. It's not the same like a brake line because

you're not really breaking down or pulling down the trailing edge. It's more to help the wing to create more of these technical features what you have. Does hands up flying exist in real world flying conditions or is B riser flying the most optimal way because it lets you connect more with

Aninder: your wing and the corrections are easier than hands up flying or anticipation of the corrections needed. What's your take on that? be

careful because if you go straight and want to fly on efficiency, you have to go on B and let the wing fly. If you go on three liners or two and a half liners, it's important that it has a BC bridge about connection because there is the idea like, because you have to, it's a little hard to explain without showing. That means. If you have a wing who is ABC and there is no connection from C to B, that means you're just pulling down the C and you have a deep profile before you and you make a hard nick inside. There is a possibility to stall your wing. Okay. This is the hard

thing, like to which wing I can, which wing I can use the C steering. And normally the manufacturers say in the manual, this wing is calibrated for C steering. I cannot say for all, yes, use the C lines. When you do your license, you should learn steering on the C lines. Important thing is if you go for C steering without the BC bridge, a connection between these two risers, you have to be very gently on the C lines. Makes sense.

Aninder: Another question just popped up in my mind about the minimum sink. A lot of times while I was progressing in the sport, there was a point of minimum sink with a little bit of brakes and flying, that kind of a thing. How do we apply the concept of minimum sink when we are on two liners or on B risers? It's interesting because I think the minimum sink rate is not anymore on this 20% or 15% of break. If you look about, I think we should

start from best glide ratio. That's in the middle category of BC that changed the position of minimum speed. A lot of pilots are now using weight shift on the outside and keep more brake on the inside or some of them as well steering with BC on the outside. Because yeah, this has happened now because there is the more efficient minimum sink rate on it. So they change a lot of the techniques. On a high expected ratio, I'm sure it makes sense to make the best glide about 40, 50, 60% of speed. I'm not precise, I didn't test it. That means nearly no break is minimum sink

rate. If you go a little bit on it, in the first moment, you change something that means you create speed to altitude. In the first moment, you have to check on which position of the break is it. But it changed and it's different which wing you have. Where is this point? Got it. The more

Aninder: you fly it out, the better you are able to answer this question for your own flying and your own wing, I guess. That is the conclusion here. All right, let's stop with saying that paragliding kind of started modellising itself about 10 to 20 years ago, sometime in between. That is when the wings were getting super efficient. We were seeing leaps and bounds in performance. A little bit of R&D started coming in a professional manner. However, the word SIV, I'm pretty sure 90% of the pilots don't even know how to say it because it's... So the word SIV has stayed as it is, regardless of how difficult it is to pronounce it. And there has been absolutely no changes compared to the advancements in

Aninder: technologies. Why did this happen? What's your take on this? Like why? Links have gotten better. Pilots have changed their habits of flying. Yet nobody basically gave a damn about safety. So why did we never see an evolution in safety training all this while? Why I think it's hard?

Because in this sport, we teach a lot based on the wing. The wing shouldn't do this. The wing should do this. You have to do this. And no one explained why. We forgot about the pallets. We have a super hard... analytic stuff for body movements. Because if I bring it on an airplane, I never saw an airplane where the main tail is working opposite to the wings. If the airplane goes in the turn, the whole airplane is turning to the side. For me, the body of the pilot is part of the aircraft. And then you have to think about the steering part of the wing. That's your two

arms and your hand. And you're steering a wing who is nine meters away from you. You are changing angle of attack on the trailing edge. And you're waiting for an aerodynamic reaction. That means we have to separate, focus, and it's super hard to explain what are the body movements in different situations. That means we have to learn. steering the arms separately of the body and sometimes the body on tension and sometimes following the movements. Then about tension in the shoulders and back and there was no one who was thinking about this complicated movements of the pilots. Everyone was saying, you have to pull there, you have to pull there, and that's it. And it works. It's not a

problem. It works. It's not wrong what we did until this time. Everything what we create in this sport, it's a learning process. And now we think about when was the first paragliding, 1989 or 1987, where to start with parachutes running down from a mountain with a great ratio from one toe. And it was a big development. And now we are in around 40 years of paragliding. getting better and better in everything. We learn something, bring something from other sports into it. It was a pioneer sport, like it was more explorers who go there, go paragliding, introduce themselves. And if you try a long time in paragliding and you be focused on yourself to getting better and better, you will find only

one solution to perform it in a perfect way. You learn your body movement automatically and no one thinks about what I'm doing that I can perform that perfectly. And these are sometimes so precise. Small movements makes a difference from the huge columns to smaller columns. This takes time. And then it comes commercial. A lot of people start flying and the time to get your license was getting shorter and shorter. We have short time to bring the same into it than before. And before, Gaider wasn't that efficient. And so they give you more backup in the end because there was not so much dynamic inside. Sure, it was more risky about stalls, spins, because it was not that efficient. Okay, but that was like, okay,

you should plug everything and work with your body because if you stop the call-ups with a 20-year-old wing full on the brakes, you will stall them. So that means the techniques change and this takes time to bring out to the world because we have a lot of powerlifting teachers that teach already 20, 25 years and they see my old technique still is working. Yes, they do. The old techniques are still working. It's not a big problem if you're precise on your weight shifting. If you learned it a long time, you can do it. But to learn it faster and more precise, there's another way where you can do it. And for me, if I tell someone, shift your weight 15% to the right side, super hard, right? If I tell you,

take your right side, break down 15 centimeters, take it five centimeters deeper, release it slowly, it's easier to teach. That means there's a lot of teaching techniques inside that wasn't developed in this sport. If we go back to skiing, you are not starting with the high advanced carving skis. You're starting with basic skis. And if you watch the ski instructor, he will adjust your movements in the legs, your tension in the knees, your movement of your upper body to stay in the right position on the skis. Then you start learning the first movements. So that means they spend a lot of time on body movements. We never did that in the sport. We did it just in tiny things, like in stores

where we say, keep tension. And the old thing was as well, like if something happens, go upright, make yourself tiny in the wing that you will not get twisted. And this was as well because I'm flying in my trainings. I try to teach all manoeuvres as well in pot harnesses with straight legs. Wow. That is pretty. Yeah. Because it's like you fly the harness in this position. So learn to use it. It was last week. I got a guy, a guy comes out and try to fly a set.

Sure, with straight legs and he over pulls the entry, he gets a full spin in with straight legs, no twist at all. Because the twist is not coming from straight legs. Sure, there is more resistance and stuff like this, it makes a difference, but the most twists are coming from a block tip. It means if I have a negative spin and if I say, okay, I have to follow now because it's happened. You can't change it in this moment. It's happened. And if your hip following a negative spin, remove the pressure from the positive side, that means you are following with the wing. When I say go with the wing, you can't change it now. And now you have to exit it. And that calls releasing. And not just hands up. It's bring

your hands up and bring it from negative to positive flying, controlled releasing. And what happened with this is we got a lot of problems and spin stalls, speeded collapses until we changed the techniques. I had this year about 20 training weeks. I have about five or six rescues. Okay. And nearly, I would say 80, 85% of these students as well fly stalls and spins. If you think at the old time, we had three to four rescues per training week. Wow. that's quite a difference this is and this is the result there is much more behind than just to do the maneuvers like this for me it's more like start with super small collapses learn the movement and learn you can react on it you can change the reaction with

your body movements And this changed in the last years more and more, and I can see the results. I get the response from people outside. They say, hey, I'm still training it. I use the stall to clear cravat. Someone told me last time, well, I get a huge collapse close to the wall and it was so hard to get into it because he say, I go into it as well if I fall to this wall where I'm flying, but I got it corrected and it wasn't a problem. And then I see it makes sense in the trainings. It's not about to destroy the wing and hopefully it's flying again. No, you got a chance to repair. Not all

the time, depend on the situation of the metrology about the double lenses and rough air, but you've got chances if you train yourself and not the wing. That makes so much sense. I think I'll let our audience process that for a minute. What I'm wondering is, I think we might have

Aninder: covered a lot of the points for this question in our talk earlier, but fundamentally, the normal SIV is teaching us to control the wing and safety pilot coaching is teaching us to control ourselves and the wing. What's your take on that? Hold on please with this. There are a lot of good

SIVs. Okay. Then what I see is that doing good things. And for me, was it to change the name, precise on that, to give a wake up call and say, don't pull just the maneuvers. Think more about the pilots. Go to each pilot where he has to step on his next step. I see some trainers are not flying anymore. Okay. If I'm not flying by myself any more than maneuvers and go with the techniques and try to think, it's for me as well, it's hard because I work a lot and I have to stay on time with the maneuvers and try to do new things and try how it reacts. Especially I can't fly all the

combinations we have on the market. And it would be great if we could create something international to bring experience together and find new concepts to create it better and teach the people better for safety. That means it's not just this SPC is the maximum of everything. It's just a beginning of thinking differently, more for the pilots. Okay. And this is for me a very important message. I don't want to stay there. Handy shrimp is SPC or something like this. This is a very important message because there are so many good trainers out there and we start slowly get connected to each other and talk about discussions, podcasts like this. bring us together because it's super hard to talk with French SOE

trainers or with other ones because about language as well, like English is not my native language. It's hard for me sometimes to find the right words. But in Turkey, I saw some trainers teaching nearly the same concept. with movements to show it. But if they do it intuitive or on purpose, what do you think about? But there are a lot of potential what we have to bring together to bring sport up and make it more safe. 100%

Aninder: agree, man. And that is one of the reasons, as you mentioned earlier, that Paragliding Atlas exists, to bring out such knowledge to the audiences, regardless of where they are in the globe. So massive thank you to you and all our listeners for being a part of this tribe I'm building here. Keeping on with the topic. How do you assess when a new pilot comes to you? Let's dive right into the action of how SPC works. So day one, somebody has signed up, shows up with all its kit. What is your to-do list? How do you take it from there on? In short, the first is I take a

look at the adjustments of the harnesses. Let's start with the bod harnesses. I explain how this works. The difference of weight shifting, about releasing tension in it, how to work to deal with the different layers in this harness. And for me, I think a lot of people fly with too much tension in the bod harness. I show them the different movement in a simulator, how to follow in a turn, what's the difference. If you block the hip, you will feel it immediately. A lot of them, they go first and show them the difference. Now I tell them, press on this leg, press on this leg, see the difference. They say, what? It's really completely different. Then I show them the body movements, the right

pull movements. What a difference. Every biler has a different movement. Somebody has a problem with the shoulder, can't do this movement. Okay, let's find a way to absorb it. And they come together. And then the next thing is we go to theory. And I do a lot of theory. Because for me, it's not important that you can remind everything I talked about, because I tried to talk about 20 years of flying in short time. For me, it's important that you understand why it is like this. And then they go for flying, watch the videos, and start basic maneuvers, pitch, pound along. This maneuver you can learn so much. You have to fly it as slow as you can to see your own body movements and to realize where I am in

this maneuver. And then we're going step up from collapses to negative spins to stalls. For me, every maneuver I step up, Because as I create this word, pulling, it's 30% flying. Releasing a break in the right movements, different speeds, it's 60% of flying. To bring this together gives you the option to fly clean, spins, stalls. It's pulling and releasing together. And this brings your skill levels higher. And the rest 5%? 10%. We are passenger.

ah it makes so much sense let the destiny players flirt okay but there is this one super thing like because if you have a high angle of attack with the hand pendulum the wing is behind you yeah Okay. Just one thing. If the wing in the pendulum, you swing forward, the wing is behind you. That's what I've heard so far. The question is why? For me, if somebody tells me something, I ask why? I think my answer, which I'm pretty sure I can speak

Aninder: for majority of my listeners as well, is that you don't stall it even more or deform the trailing edge even more so that the energy with which the wing has gone back doesn't build up even more. So when it shoots, it's not going to shoot like crazy. The answer of most people is because if I break

it behind me, it stalls. This is the answer of 80% what I get. All right. Because if the wing is behind you, don't break it because you stall it.

Aninder: That's super interesting. Yeah. It comes from acrobatic gliding. If you try to stall the wing in a high angle with a pendulum, you get longer

breakways. You have longer steering ways. It's super hard to explain without a video, but there is, I tried, okay? I tried this last maneuver to explain. Okay. You create a pitch pendulum by yourself. You brake, keep it, release. And as long as your pendulum is working, you have a lot of reserve in the system. Okay. About stalls. If you ever had on the takeoff, you lift up your wing with less wind, you keep on walking and you try to stop this takeoff. Okay. If you think just in mind, bring the wings above you, less tension, less pressure. How deep you have to break that your wing fall down again? A lot. Maybe the arms are too short. Okay. When you have the pendulum, you go forward, the wing is behind you. In the

moment when this movement stops, how much weight is on the wing of you? Less? It's almost weightless. That means you have longer steering wheels. But if you brake too early, that means you stop behind you the moving wing forward. And then you try to stop the wing straight above you. What has happened with your pendulum? Your pendulum from the pilot will as well stop. And if you stop the pendulum, from the pilot and the wing. If you brake too early at the wing above, you go straight a little bit forward, it stays a little bit of pendulum, you go under the wing, you have still the brake on it. Now you have to release because you reduced with this movement the speed from the wing and the pilot. That means the

speed in the system is less. If you go on a little turn, your wing will spin in a negative spin because you have no speed in the system anymore. Okay. What is happen if you leave your hands behind up? The pendulum is working. Okay. And then the wing comes above you, you swing back, right? That means if you start breaking your wing, when your pendulum is, you were in the center, the wing go forward, you swing backwards. Then you go on connection point and then forward moving, go deeper on the break faster. You stop the forward flying movement of the wing. You can go full on because the angle of attack is slow. You have a long breakway again. If the pendulum change like this. You start releasing and you keep the

speed in the system. This is the reason why we should stop the wings a little bit in front of us. This is important for the new wings with the S-shape. If you use the brake, use it right and more, but in an angle where the wing can take more brakeway. Most people brake too early. If the wing is just about 10, 15 degrees behind you and coming forward and you brake already, I often ask the people on which part of the brake you have the best reaction. in which part of the brake you have reduced the most speed. Think about landing. If you come in, nearly open brakes, you go a

little bit on it, you go straight away, you change speed and altitude, right? You make a nice flare and you land. If you come in with already

pulled 40% of brakes,

We all did it already. It hurts. If you start to freeze, I'm thinking it's nothing. It's just a drop. The whole different world with two-liners. I

Aninder: paid the price not too long ago, so I couldn't walk straight for the next two days. And this is for me as well. This is the most efficient brake at

the first 30% of brake. And this 30% of brake to use in the moment when the wing starts really creating speed forward. this moment, you have to use this way, especially now. And then this is not above you. It's a little bit in front of you. And that means a connection point in the pendulum. And when he starts really pulling forward. In this moment, I used 30% of brake, reduced the maximum I can reduce on the brakes. And if the pendulum goes further, I can brake slowly deeper and support him. It doesn't matter if it stalls in front of me, but when the pendulum change, I'm going back under the wing. I have a long way to releasing and keep the speed in the system. And on the pendulum backend, releasing the brakes,

the angle of the deck gets higher. That means the chance of a collapse is less. Okay. Interesting. That's a lot. Maybe we are here. Your podcast was. Yeah, this has to be. I can try and publish this video as well if it works on Spotify platforms, but we'll see. I feel like I should meet you

Aninder: in person with all my camera gear and stuff like that to make this more enriching rather than just an audio one. I think a lot of this, like this

French exit one in the trainings from exit from high winger was in straight climb up. Yeah. You have a long time to think about what you're doing there when you climb up. It feels like a minute, but it's a three, four second climb up. And the people stop the wing too early and get more shootout that tell them, hey, wait. And most of the time they go and contact a little bit, break 15% of break and the paddle stops. They can't believe it. They say, okay, sure, it's a clean situation over the lake. For me, I'm lazy. I want to have this last react sheet the most efficient

out of it. Of course, that's the way. To be honest, I think competition flying must have helped a lot in this kind of thought process because

Aninder: that is all about efficiency and maintaining the energy and not wasting it. I think we should be thankful for two-liners and all the comp gliders for coming into the sport in a structured way. R11 era was a whole different time. But today's flying, as you said, people are controlling. BC rises on the outer end of the thermaling core and all of that. That helps a lot in my opinion. But for anybody who's listening to this, If they have to start preparing for this kind of thought process and later handling, what are the steps they can take to try and inculcate this? Of course, you are doing your own bit and people are in different possibilities where accessing you or a trainer like you, the

possibilities are only so much. So wherever they are, if they want to try and fly towards this direction, what are the steps that you recommend people follow so they can become a safer pilot overall? First, I think is take time. Really give yourself time and try basic maneuvers. That

means go for pitch bend alone. Not like what we did early times, pull it until you get a frontal collapse. Okay. That's not the sense of it. Really realize your movements, the movements of the wing. Fly it slowly. Yeah. Take time for it. The next thing, if you go on two liners, it's important to get a little bit of confidence in negative spins. Because this is the fastest and efficient way to get cruvets out. There is maybe one very important thing for me because I saw it a lot of time to get cravats out with a negative spin or pulling brake. The important thing is do it on a high angle of attack. That means when the wing is behind you, not in front of you. I see a lot of accidents where people try to pull

out the cravat and going in a turn in a spiral dive, going into They get out, maybe they grow up, but the angle is so, the wing is in front of them and got the opposite collapse like a cascade. The only right way, in my opinion, is clean a wing in when the pendulum is working and he's behind you. You can pull long breakways, you have less pressure in the right moment, and the wing cannot enter in a turn when the pendulum is working behind you. Get confidence on this one because that's the fastest way to clean it. And for my opinion is get a little bit confidence in flying

stalls with these wings. This is the only thing we have. It's not about to do a clean stall to get perfection. I want to have a perfect stall. No, it's not. The important thing is get confidence. If you have a big cravat, you are able to stall it and maybe get this cravat out. This is the only things we can do in two liners. We have folding lines for two liners. And in my trainings, before we go to folding lines, you have to get some practicing on stalls. Because folding lines are not easy to use. You have to learn how to use it. And there are maybe some fuck ups on it because

you put it in the wrong direction, too hard, too much outside, too much inside. You don't release it. It's super easy to get line overs. To get this out, you only have a chance with a stall. Full stall, yeah. Yeah. As we are approaching the last part of the show, Helmut, a thing just came to

Aninder: my mind that as a trainer, as somebody who is responsible for people's lives when they're teaching them safety, how can SIV trainers develop this kind of mindset or outlook on SIV trainings? And how can they learn from safety pilot coaching and bring that into their current SIV trainings? Think about your own skills, your own movement. What are you doing? How have you got your attentions? Try new things. Try flying the

maneuvers straight by yourself with straight legs. Teach people to deal with their harnesses. A super interesting thing was one year ago, I did private coaching, more like a learning process for myself too. There was Adi Geisecker, he's a well-known photographer, I think. And there was Melanie and there was as well Michael Maurer, the brother of Kriegel. I told him about these movements and he tested flying collapses, balls with straight legs. He was super scared at the moment because it's new. And I was super scared to teach him because I say, how I have the right. to tell him a 10 years experience test pilot to do something new with me on the radio. I can't tell you anything. And he was

like, well, I'm flying now like a student. For him, it was scary in this moment. And he tried it. He tested the speed at collapse with a B wing, mid B wing with straight legs. And he says, I'm impressed because it's not any more to react to what we get when we test it. Stay on speed bar, different things. And then he go for stalls and helis in straight legs and he say, oh, that's working. But here's one. But on the other hand, he says, well, I'm not sure normal pilots, people then learn it in a different way, can change the mindset to this setup. And say, okay,

that's my job. This is one, like try new things, try to fly the straight legs, try to think, look on your hips, what are you doing? how you have tension, where you move. Important is let people do mistakes. Don't be, oh, that was bad. It was not perfect. But you have to do mistakes that you

can learn something out of it. And these mistakes should be not on a rescue. It should be possible to clean up. That means look at the people,

precise what they're doing with their arms. And I think everyone who is already some years in flying find himself like me. I see like a sea star, the arms and legs spread out in the air because something happened. It's happened to me like if you're going upright from the harness, your legs go anywhere, your hands stay anywhere if you get it because it's a stress moment. And then you go, ah, what I'm doing. And that's okay. That's a human reaction. But then tell them it's okay. Find back in a control position. To realize it faster, start slowly with the maneuvers and give them a step up. That makes so much sense. I think staying calm for instructor is so important. I've seen so many instructors abusing

Aninder: their students. I'm like... does not make sense the student is anyways shitting his pants and you transferring that anxiety through radio is not helping the situation as an instructor in student accommodations i was saying i think no one come lying out of the lake and say helly now you will shit your pants off now i fuck up No one will go out with this mindset over the lake. And so my option, if someone fucks up anything, I want to

say, hey, come on, keep calm. I want that he keeps on turning again to doing something. And if it's back to basics, but he has to keep on going, that he sees, okay, it was a mistake, it happened. I got this a few weeks ago. It was like two guys were coming with an Alpina and something else. And there wasn't a training. They had to put all heart collapses in from the first moment on. And I could see on the movie, he'd take the A riser and you can see the A riser was lower than his ass. Man, that's not a reaction you will have outside there. sure there are sometimes super hard

collapses but not like this not with this hard input there must be very rough conditions and then you have to think about should i fly in this condition it takes me three days to remove them to get a little bit less a little bit confidence because they were so scared of the collapses and they say after the last training so it was like I'm still alive. That's not the idea of training. Slow down. Find a way to push them up. Rise them up and push them together. I think this is a topic which is hard to navigate in the sport of paragliding, where there's so much adrenaline

Aninder: involved. But staying calm is the key. The moment you let your heart rate shoot up is the moment you start losing the game. And that is what I have discovered over a period of time. I want to talk quickly about maneuvers, the philosophy we have understood and how to have a mindset while getting into this new style of coaching. When it comes down to actual maneuvers, are there any new ones? Are there any different physical activities that you make your students do? Or is it still based on the same usual SIV syllabus that we have had over the period of years?

I'm sure there is. The maneuvers are still the same. We have the wingovers, we have the side collapses, we have the ears, we still have a B stall. We have a spiral, we have different kinds of spots. The stalls, we create the spin stall to get into a flying back position. We have what I removed from the trainings. It's the full negative spin. just to keep it on over one side keep on going in a frill and it's a negative spin because the same movement what I need if I'm going to acrobatics. Okay. We have the normal wing overs. We have the SUD movement. For me, it's the SUD at

this moment going to basic maneuver for normal SPCs or ASOEs because it's the only movement what we have, what can simulate a little bit of outer rotation. It's the same moving direction. And if I'm have seen it once, I can realize where I am easier. Then we have the B steering, B-C steering on speed bar. They're trying to install on the B- Cs to work on the two liners as well. How can I stop? What is happen if I pull the Bs a little bit outside? What is happen if I pull it inside? Go and wing over some speed bar on the B lines. Then we have sure pitch bundle loom. We have

pitch bundle loom with speed bar and B lines. How to change from B to... breaks in which time moments movements if someone get clean stalls snap

Aninder: stalls so the maneuver is still the same i think you always gain was the blueprint of spc without charging your penny so that's very kind of you i think just to resolve some curiosity of some listeners that might be the easiest way to check out more information is head over to his website which goes le minus S-T-R-E-M-P-F.com. I'm sure to put a link in the show notes below. It's mostly in German, I believe. Is that the language? It's all in German at the moment because I

got the certification of my school in Austria this autumn, this spring. And so it's all in the beginning, really to where we want to grow up. We want to do something in English as well. The idea is maybe if I get the time to do some tutorials about it. But before I wrap up, the AI is more of the

Aninder: one. Everybody's excited about it. I was just looking at this PDF, which was launched by Skywalk in their SkyBait harness, in case you've heard about it. It detects collapsing, I think it's about emergency rescue, injection, and all of that, for which we will have a separate episode coming up very soon for our listeners as well. But do you have any thoughts about future of airline safety training? What are, what's your take on that? Where are we heading with this board? We have time to go through this. The future is hard to explain, depending what happened on

the wings, but still, it will be basics. Because it will be basic moments. People say, well, I don't want to go into, with my X1, into a training because I destroy my stuff. And they're right with what they say, because there could be some scratches, there could be a harder impact if a snap opening or something, but what I can say from My one, if you step up slowly, the risk is less. Or maybe we get any time some certified trainings where some companies say, hey, I will give you 3x1, I give you 2x1, I give you that. People come and train with the swings. We

tried something with Nova. Last this year, where we say, okay, we want to introduce the Codex, the C2 liner for people who want to change, to do an SOE or an SPC with this wing. And we got these wings from NOVA for using it for the SPC, for the pilots. It's a question of money because if you spend 10, 15 wings for training, it costs a lot. But if there's a pool of wings, we can order and say, I need this wing for some maybe selected trainings. This will be maybe a future that people are not scared to destroy their own wings. Give them an option, maybe something like this. As one was a

question about if there's a possibility like the German, Austrian or Swiss league. Because there are a lot of pilots who are changing their wings every year or every two years and use wings to keep them in advance for using it next year for trainings. Maybe it's an idea to bring people to go for a training. A hundred percent. Love your point of view on how to make the community feel a bit more involved, more safe. And of course,

Modernizing SIV Courses: capital rules is the only decision. So a lot of it comes down to money. So we'll keep our fingers crossed. With that, we have come to the end of the

Aninder: show. Any closing thoughts before we say goodbye for now? For me, it's important if you try something out there, be careful to do it slowly. And

for me, it's very important that all my students, if we go out and explain what we have done, be sure you can explain as well why we have it done. If you're not understand it right or you forget something, it could be as well dangerous for someone else. It means if you're not understanding clear what we mean of this angle of attack and break there, there, there, there, there, think about. Take your time, make it sense for yourself.

If it makes sense, try, try it slowly, but don't go out and say, he say that and do that. You know, it's really, this is what I say in my trainings. I say, guys, I told you, explained to you based on physics. As good I know. Now you have to go out and prove what I told you. Test it. Let's watch the

videos. Let's find if there is a wrong angle, a wrong body movement, why it was happen. If we can find it and you can understand it, let's repeat it. If there are some movements, maybe one, two times in every training, you're saying, sorry, I can't see it on the movie. I can't see it on the analytics. I'm sorry, I don't know. But important is you have to understand it. If it makes no sense for yourself, don't do it. That's the

important thing. Someone comes to me and say, Eddie, do it like this. I say, why? And if there's no sense behind, don't do it. This is the important thing. I think listen to your intuition. That is the key here. And that is what you are bringing out. Because of course, if you have the

Aninder: knowledge to follow up your actions, then it's a lot more intuitive. And then the confidence levels and the end results are much, much higher. Got it, Heli. On that note, heartfelt thanks for bringing out this brand new concept to our audiences and to the paragliding world out there. Needless to say, cannot wait to dive deeper into this with a more holistic manner in a video tutorial or some sorts of like that, which we will connect on. But for now, it's been an absolute honor, Helge. It was a super nice, super pleasure to be in your show and the podcast. And thanks

for trusting me, for listening to me and hope to see you soon.