Alain Zoller: The Science of EN Certifications : How Work Group 6 Shaped Paragliding Testing, Innovation & Safety

We don't focus too much on the collapses because the collapses, when you collapse the glider, is absolutely not representative of what you will get in air. That means... It was something super interesting. We experimented a few years ago. It was one guy. He participated in the X-Alps and during the training, he crashed. About the technology... What is certified is not one better than the other one. It's just about the choice, what you want to do, what you want to have. So how does reserve certification look and what is the ideal descent speed that one should

Aninder: look for when choosing a reserve? The idea of the rescue testing is to check

what is up pilots across the world welcome back to another episode of paragliding atlas the podcast where we talk all things paragliding and today we are diving into a topic that is super critical to practice the art of flight in the safest manner possible and that happens to be the ecosystem of en certification and all the jazz that comes with the work group six Now, if you like me have ever wondered how exactly are paragliders tested for safety and why some wings have an EN label or a DHV stamp or who decides that what exactly makes a glider safe enough for us to fly, then spoiler alert, it's not magic. Instead, it's science, collaboration, and a ton of work which goes on behind the scene, all of

which is organized by something known as technical committees and work groups. So here's the deal. The European Committee for Standardization, which is also abbreviated as CEN, oversees hundreds of technical committees. Each and every one of them is focused on a specific industry, such as, you know, construction, aerospace, or let's say in our use case, sports equipment. And these technical committees are basically like specialized teams of engineers or safety experts or let's say industry professionals who create rules or norms in simpler language that are meant to keep the products in such use case safe and reliable. Now, within these technical committees, there are smaller task forces called workgroups. which basically are used for very specific scenarios. And for paragliding, that happens to be

workgroup 6, which is a team of pilots, designers, administrators who have spent quite a lot of man-hours refining the sport's safety rulebook and are the ones who are debating on how much collapse angle is desirable for a certain letter or if it is allowed to use collapse line for a certain wing. and the protector inside it, and such nitty-gritties around them, which basically means that their decisions shape the gear that me and you get to fly. Now, if you, like me, are a bit overwhelmed with this, and finding it a bit hard to follow, then hold on for a second. For that, let's rewind the clock back to prehistoric time and talk about Roman Empire a bit, because they were

one of the first ones who came out with standardizing things. And I'm talking about standardizing road widths, because Roman Empire had this trademark that they wanted each and every road to have a certain width, simply for the fact that they wanted to move their armies faster so that they could keep on with their conquest in the most efficient manner possible. Moving on to a bit more recent time when we look at the industrial revolution. During that time, we had a standardization of uniform screw threads. And the simplest reason was that machines could be built a bit more reliably. Now fast forward to today, the EEN certifications are the modern answer to the same question. And that is,

how do we make sure the gear we trust our lives with is truly safe and trustworthy to begin with? But here's the catch. This isn't just all about paperwork. These norms are basically shaping the wing that we fly, the harness that we clip in, and most importantly, the future of this amazing sport that we all practice. So today, we get to sit down with Alan Zoller, the brainchild behind the test house of Air Turquoise, a key player in Workgroup 6. And to pull back the curtain, he is going to break down how certifications really work, why even tiny design changes matter, and what pilots actually need to know before buying their next wing. No jargon, no fluff, just straight talk from the front

lines of paragliding safety. Now, if you're ready to geek out on all that you have heard so far, then press play and let the streaming begin.

Alan Soller, what an honor to have you on Paragliding Atlas. Welcome to the show. No, thank you. And thank you for the invitation. Alan, you are somebody who has tested endless amounts of wings. Do you have a number on how many wings you have flown until now and how many stalls have you done? Because that was the first thing that came to my mind that you must be the most qualified certification and stall professional out there. This is my problem. I don't make a cross for every stall, but I would like to say my first stall was in 86, 87. Because it was part of the education at the

beginning. And after, it was a sport. It was just for pleasure. And for me, it was nothing about the competition or to go to distance. When it was, the glide was a four, five, maximum five. And we go down, up, down, up, down. And every flight, it was a stalling the glider because it was funny. I remember one time it was with a friend and we start to compete a little bit together and say, okay, now, ah, you do. I'm sure you cannot make a full stall. I will show you up full stall. And after him, I do a full stall. After I say, okay, I can keep the full stall for three seconds.

Okay, three seconds. After five seconds. And you repeat every time. And after I say, okay. Now, because before the glider was nice flowers and I don't know what we call that. It was not like now with the tips coming in the front. It was just round like that. And I say, okay, now I can take my both break under my seat and I take the pictures.

And yeah, that began like that. And I was absolutely not afraid. It was super pleasant to fly on that subway. Wow. That sounds like quite a... Just for the number of who stole us, this is difficult to say because I started 87, 88. And until now, until now, they have come back less and less from these three years because I'm living in Norway. But I had, yes, every week with Air Turquoise, we flew minimum one, two days, sometimes three days. And for sure, in a certification procedure, we have the full stall to perform. Yeah, that means lots of thousands. Lots of

Aninder: thousands. Let me simplify that question for you. Do you know any other pilots in the world who might have done more than you? Tournaire is my

friend. We fly together from a long time ago. I don't know. My Kung, for example, I'm pretty sure it's even more unmade than mine. And some other pilots working for the manufacturer. But we are quite old. Old in it. Of course. Certainly, I have one of the most full stores in my shoulder.

Aninder: Fair enough. How long have you been in the game? What's your flying career? When did it begin? And if you could just tell our viewers a little bit about your introduction. I began, I started to fly. I was not in the first, but it was in 1986. 1986.

But it was quite the beginning of the paraglider, but I didn't fly a hang glider before. And yeah, it was, I remember the first flight. It was, I don't remember the name. It was a parachute, actually. It was not, it was not really a paraglider. The education was, and it was by ski, with a ski. And I say, okay, this is a paraglider bag. You open like that, you pack like that, and you go front of the, on the slope, and you take that. And poof, I go. and make a little jump. It was maybe 50 meters, 60 meters from the ground. And I remember I said, oh man, how we turn? Didn't explain how

we turn the glider. But it was too late. It was already sliding down the field and boom, I was staying in a snow like that. I said, wow, this is fantastic. It's just amazing. And we go up, down, up, down all the time. And I started like that in 86. And after in 87, I was mainly flying in Switzerland. I met some guys and one friend after a while. And they were working for the new project for the new paraglider business. It was at this period, there was Eldeka. It was the main brand and ITV. And for sure, some brands also in Germany and Dell. Dell was Korean. But in

Switzerland, there was the main brand. and they're coming with a new philosophy it was the first line elliptic shape and so okay why not i can fly with you i agree to check to fly your glider i'm interesting and little by little i think we got a nice friend and i bought my first glider my second glider until then And I make a competition and lucky strike. I was quite good. I won an end task and the general result was good. My only problem was I made too much party when I won the task and I was not in full power the day after. I start like that. And after the guys asked me if I can

go to certify the glider, I must be traveling on the other side of Switzerland in Liechtenstein, the Vaduz. I said, okay, I can bring the glider over there. They asked me to have a demonstration flight. And the guy said, the responsibility of the test house. And I said, wow, these guys look not too bad. And are you interested to fly for us to certify some glider? Yeah, why not? It's a little bit money. It was nice. It was fun. It was different. And I start like that. I started that, and this association was a private association, but they were working for the hang glider. And when the paragliding business exploded, it was too much work for them, and they didn't know anything about paragliding.

And they needed to refresh. And the Fifth Federation took more or less over that, and they were looking for a man as a responsibility for the hang glider. And they asked me. because I have some connection with some friends. We flew together. And we started like that. I started to work for the Swiss Federation to organize the flight tests, to collect, to work with some friends, to create the team. In 1989, we were working to develop the new standards. It was not calling the WG6, but it was already the first meeting we had with English Federation, German Federation, Swiss Federation, French. We did that in Monaco. It was the first working group to develop the standard. And I participated in 99 for

that. And I continue now. This afternoon, I have a meeting for the WG6. And yeah, I continued to work with the Swiss Federation until 95, I think. But after, it was a little bit of a problem because I must move in Zurich to work with the Swiss Federation. It was based in Zurich. And it was complicated to organize the test because the best place for testing was Ville-Neuve. It's high, no wind. It's very pleasant. We have the landing beside the lake. And it's very easy to go. It's 20 minutes by car. And we are a thousand meters, a little bit more than a thousand meters high. And okay, we decided to split a little bit the responsibility that took charge of the invoicing and then my side organized everything

else. And this period, it was a super good team. We were working with Andy Ediger, Hannes Arsch. It was some famous pilot with the team. And in the same time, we are also... As the Swiss compromise, we like also to understand why it was some conflict between the French philosophy and the German philosophy. Because the DHV had already some other, they created the rules. There was the DHV rules. And we were working as test pilots, our Swiss team, for the DHV, to exchange the experiences. and also for to try to understand why why it's like that in germany they cannot understand what's happened flying together many years until the wg6 work was going forward and in 2006 in 2006 yeah the new en official

en was published that mean it was in germany the ltf We called that before it was a DHV test, but it was totally wrong because DHV is just one test house in the federation, the German federation, but apply the LTF rules. So we don't call Air Turquoise test. It's Air Turquoise working according to the EN and LTF rules. But anyway, it was some little troubles at this time because DHV is a huge monopoly on the market. And there was a little bit afraid to lose it. And when I suggest to the Swiss Federation to start TN certification, Swiss Federation and DHV, there was good friendship. And it's complicated, but okay, but if you want to do, okay, but we cannot support you. And I remember we had a meeting with

the German team and the Swiss team. One of the responsibility of the DHV said, we don't want any competitor. We want to keep the monopoly. That means if you start TN, All your pilot has fire from the, say, DHV test. I said, gloops. What? Yeah, that's quite a strong statement to make in

Aninder: such a niche market. Yeah, I mean, I can understand they were comfortable for them, but it was not pleasant for the manufacturer

because they follow the rule that was a little bit wide and they're working for the security. That means they're thinking to go a little bit over the rules for the security of the sport. Anyway. One more time. They were working for security, but they wanted to go a little bit over the

Aninder: rules for the sake of the sport. I do not understand that. Could you please clarify? The LTF has some rules, but the rules is a little bit

wide. And the test pilot can say, okay, yes, he's hitting the rules, but I don't like so much that this can be difficult for the pilot or this can be dangerous. That means the glider is failed. It is not... So the gray areas were far away. Yeah. Makes sense. Now that's mean it was a little bit difficult for the manufacturer to manage. They did not know if it was because they want to fail the glider because we are not friends. Yeah, it was a little bit difficult. That makes so much sense. And that's weird. But anyways, please continue. So interesting. And yeah, everybody was fired from the HV test pilot and we must start from scratch.

Yeah, for sure. It was some pilot that said, oh, you know, I earn money with that. And I cannot, okay, I go work with the DHV. We are still good friends. Everybody says absolutely no problem. But, and with Claude Turner, we decided to say, okay, now we, and we have some support from some manufacturer. Okay, guys, we have a car to play with that. Slowly, we had some other pilots coming. It was super hard at the beginning. But it was one critic. Some people, they criticize us because we don't have any criteria. Anybody can supervise us. Because in Germany, they're working in LTF and the LBA, the German Civil Aviation, and control the DHV if the old documentation was okay. We say, okay, we have to try. We

make the ISO 9001. This is about the administration.

And we can start like that. Like that, we have someone that can organize the supervisors. We would like to have the possibility to perform the LTF, to deliver the LTF certification. And it was so much strange. No, no, it's not possible because you are not a German citizen. No, because your company should be in Germany. We took a lawyer and we checked that. And at the end, it was absolutely no problem. We should just ask to the LBA and to apply to do the test. The process was two years. And we checked what is the requirement, what we have to do. But you have to do that for sure it

was in German. That means we have to because we're living in a French part of Switzerland. We don't know German. That means we have to translate everything. And after we realized the requirement they asked us, it was less demanding as our ISO 9001. So, oh, it's perfect. That means it was quite fast. It was quite fast. And suddenly, I don't remember which year it was, but poof, we were certified. We were able to deliver the LTF certificate for our clients. What exactly is ISO 9001 certification? What does that allow test house or any organization to have? The 9001, it's the system of management. It's based on ISO and you must follow, you must have some insurance, some. So ISO topic is not really my specialty

and my passion, but it's not so strong. Now it's a bit different because the standard go in evolution every day, but every year. So basically,

Aninder: that kind of certification allows an organization to say that, hey, we are run professionally and we have set guidelines which govern our day-to-day workings. And that is why you can trust us. Yeah, exactly. And I remember 2006, that means probably 2009, we should be able to

deliver an LTF certificate. And it was one time, it was one guy who contacted me to say, OK, yes, I want to fight the DHV. I will create a test house in Germany. OK, yeah, I don't need any competitor. I will not help you. It's a little bit strange. And the guy, he was coming on the market. For sure, he pushed so hard to us and we must discuss. But it was not in my philosophy to fight anybody because I want to create a good atmosphere, a good company with a good service. And these guys, it was Guido Reusch and he started EAPR, European Academy of Paragliding, blah, blah. And

it was his target to fight the DHV because for any reason or some manufacturer was absolutely not happy with the DHV. And when he came on the market, it was a big catastrophe. It was a catastrophe because he didn't have any knowledge. I can just imagine coming on the market now, if you came 10 years ago, to create the team, the test pilot team with experience, who have a load test, test the parachute, test the harness, test everything. To start from scratch, it's terrible. It's a huge work. Anyway, he came on the market and he was super good for the politics. And he was super good for the politics. It's a one point for him. And he pushed the politician, LBA, the German Civil Aviation and

the Ministry of Aviation in Germany to why it was many things behind also because it was included about the paramotor and everything. But he pushed the ministry to go for an accreditation for the test house, an accreditation 17-0-20. And this, we call that ISO 17020. It's a white room for the test house. But a white room for paragliding, it's a bit difficult. What's a white room? A white room is if you work in the pharma industry, for example. In pharma industry, you should have a room where you check the atmosphere, you check the temperature, the humidity. It's what we call a white room. A controlled environment room. Exactly. to control the environment in the room. And we were totally against that

because it's not applicable for pilot riding. First of all, the flight test is on air. It's made by a pilot and not by a robot or whatever. And it costs a lot. It costs a lot because every instrument we use should be calibrated. We should have periodic control for the instrument to avoid any variation. And we tried to fight against that. And the process was done and we cannot do anything. We are two years late, in late, one and a half year too late behind him. And some manufacturer, for us, it was not possible to delivering any LTF to our customer. That means some customer and say, okay, now you must go, you must do your accreditation, but now we must certify everything. And at the end, we got this

accreditation that cost a lot. We were absolutely, totally hungry about that. And these guys disappeared after 10 years. It was, I don't have the shoulder strong enough to continue. And it was probably not a big passion. Maybe he don't show it by himself also to do that. But anyway, this is not my problem. In 2014, we got this accreditation. and the DHV a little bit before. From this moment, we are with the DHV with good communication because there's no reason to not have it. And we are on the same level. That means the manufacturer can also have the opportunity to pass a load test to the DHV and a flight test to us. The document is recognized because we are on the same level in terms of the

documentation and the calibration and everything. And for us, we complained a lot before, but now we are quite happy about this accreditation because every measurement we are doing for the load test, for example, for the speed, for the accelerometer, for the sensor and everything is calibrated. That means for us, it's really more comfortable to give the result, to say, okay, the result is that. There's nothing to complain. And with this measure, it's also with some uncertainty. That means more calculated uncertainty with the load sensor or the whole measurement chain and everything. But at the end, also for us, about classification of documents, about the structure of

the company, this is bringing a lot for us. Especially you increase the number of work and we are working a lot for the rescue. We are almost 100% of the work. We are working a lot for the harnesses, glider. We're sharing the glider with the HV. That means it's nice to be well organized. Indeed. I think I was just about to ask you because you've probably answered all the questions that I've stored for you in this

Aninder: interview so far. Thank you for being so honest about your views. I would say in today's times, being honest and being open is very rare. You're quite an inspiration in that regard. And secondly, you seem to have the market monopoly and you seem to have done a lot of things right in the past three or four decades in the business. What are the things that you see has set Air Turquoise apart from any other competitor in the industry that you guys are just the go-to test house for anyone who wants to sell their products in barrel lighting? Yeah, first of all, Air Turco has a

success, I would like to say. It's about because we are full passionate of the sport. This is mainly the full thing. If you want to do, if you want to earn a lot of money, you should not do with paraglider. This is clear. But we can live with paraglider. We have a team of seven pilots. We are three, four employees in the office. That means it's working well. And the big advantage compared to the older test house, where one test house doesn't make so much noise, but in France, it's because we are just alone. We don't have any federation besides. If we don't have a customer, we close the company. That means it's also a

good motivation to go forward and to say, OK, if suddenly we don't have a work for one month, This has not happened since a long time ago. We have some charges we must pay some people, all people, all these fixed charges, the renting, the house, the rooms and everything. And we base that, I would like to say, especially from the communication, also for the rapidity of the service. That means we can just understand the manufacturer if it develops one product and you wait two weeks or three weeks before testing and something is wrong, and after you have to communicate that to the manufacturer you wait one week it's a one month and after you have to send the product back he must be thinking he lost

maybe three months that means our philosophy is to say okay we receive our harness we test within the next two days the glider also to the same we organize a load test the shock and load test for paragliding almost every 10 days Not so much. We're not so much glider, two gliders, three gliders, but it's enough. We don't spend so much time. Maybe we can wait more glider to have more money, but it's not interesting for us. We want to provide a good service. This was maybe the biggest point for us. I quickly want to ask you a question, Alan. How many test houses exist in

Aninder: the world as of now? Accredited, two, the HVNOS. And in France, we are one from the French Federation, but they are not accredited. I don't know so

much the status of them. They don't make so much now. They don't satisfy so much product. So basically, let's say you and DHV are the only go-to

Aninder: option for any manufacturer coming out there. And then, of course, they can choose based upon the service and the reuse and the legacy factor and everything. Yeah. For example, if you have the manufacturer, they're living beside the DHV. There's no reason to come to us. At the same, in

Switzerland, we have some manufacturers that are living very close to us. It's easy for them. They call us in the morning at 7. Okay, guys, it's good to fly. Yes, okay, come. At 9 o'clock, we are here. At 9.30, this is quite comfortable. And the place where we are flying or load testing is very close to the office. This is comfortable because we start the day. 9.30, we are in flight. We are missing one glider right between. We make a little hook to the office and it takes five minutes. And we are straight able to... to start the test. And a low test is 45 minutes or one hour

maximum to drive. It's very easy. David, I've seen some videos on YouTube of you guys showing behind the scenes of your car going full

Aninder: throttle on the airstrip. and the paraglider being stretched to its limits and sometimes surviving, sometimes breaking, which are quite exciting to see. But Alan, I wanted to ask this in the beginning of the show, but now we have probably covered a lot of topics already. What were the major differences between AFNOR and LTF? Because you've seen both of those standards when the sport was progressing. And EN, of course, was a whole different world that came on much later with the working group 6 and everything around it. So if you can talk to our audiences a little bit about AFNOR, LTF, and the major differences between them. AFNOR is not a standard, actually. AFNOR is the secretary. When we work

with them, we continue to work with them, the WG6, to establish the EN standard. We should call that PEN, the Project EN Standard. For example, if this project was in charge for the DIN, DIN is the German Institute of Normalization. Maybe we can call also DIN every country that the secretary is. SNV in France is a DIN in Germany, etc. And at the beginning, it was a lot of research, what is good or not good, how we can inform better the pilot. At the beginning, it was really early, but it was the stickers. We call that for pilotage. EZ, the easy steering, and for pilotage exigeant, for the very high level steering. And it was a little bit confusing because some people say, okay, no, pilotage EZ,

easy steering, that means without any steering, you don't need to do anything. If I remember, 1, 2, 3, to try to work a little bit with the German classification, because it was 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3.

I don't know for which reason it was falling down after a few years. Before that, it was standard, performance, and competition. This is

Aninder: the German one. No, enough now. First, there was PE. After it was standard, performance, competition. Okay. And after it was one, two,

three. After it was ABC. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Quite a lot of transitions. A lot of transition. It was a little bit every time because it was a few years between every changement. It was a little bit confused to the pilot for everybody, you know. When did the origins of Working Group 6

Aninder: start? Was that because all the other certifications were just not clear enough and there were incidents in real life? Or was it just because the manufacturers wanted to make it a bit more stronger? No, it was because it was nothing existing, actually. In 1989, it was based on

the Manufacturer Association in France, because in France there was a lot of manufacturers. in the past you know 18 years yeah and uh pma no no no no i'm not aware of that i'm born in 90s man so i know yeah he was not born yeah actually it was the association francaise the constructor the planner ultra lege souple was it a bit complicated i cannot translate that Sounds fancy. It was a manufacturer and they say, okay, we must have some standard for to, for to increase the security of the sport. And, and they're doing some of the first meeting in 89 in Monaco. And they start,

they start like that. Yeah. Yeah. The target, it was, it was a little bit strange to have always this fight between, between Latin side and the German side. There was a missing communication. It was maybe not the right people also walking around the table. But yeah, it was that. The LTF, because you ask what is the difference between AFNO and LTF. LTF, it was based on the 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3. But like I said before, the procedure was not so detailed as now. Now, if you take the flight test report, it's really detailed. It's very complete. It's very hard. You can see the

rotation, the angle, the dive forward, and everything. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. And maybe it was one logic, this LTF so far, because they can manage. They don't need so much details. Because it was a federation, it was a test from the federation and the federation had the statistic of accident that they knows where to go, where we have to go for to do, for to increase the security of the product. Now I would like to say it's certification is one thing, but certification is made either EN certification, EN LTF, because now it's exactly the same. There's no changement. It's just about administrative. about the documentation you should provide to the Ministry of Transport in Germany. But this

certification is made in a standardized atmosphere, made by the professional pilot, sitting in a normal harness. The harness is defined by the standard. And the maneuver is done for every glider exactly in the same way. That means if you have four aspect ratio or eight aspect ratio, it's where the mark on the glider, you must follow that. If you collapse too much, you don't consider the collapse. If you collapse too little, you don't consider this collapse. You should be exactly on the mark. And this, that gives you the possibility to compare every glider and to classify this glider. But that doesn't mean it's exactly the same that will show the pure behavior of the glider. That means if you

take one meter of use range of the glider, for me, it's one centimeter in the middle of that. This is what the glider show in a certification. And this is give the possibility to the pilot to compare the glider and each other. Because if we want to explore everything, we start in the 1st of January and we finish on the 31st of December. And for sure, the first guys who buy the glider, they will do something we don't test. That means it's difficult. And what is important for the pilot is to check the flight test report. To check what that means, the flight test with not

only the A glider and the B, oh, they are in B. Yeah, but B, the manufacturer, they are doing a lot of effort and they understand a lot of the glider and the behavior. And now, I would like to say, these five, ten last years, the old D slide in a C, the C slide, that's why we have low B and high B. We are working on the W6 now to try to solve this situation. And now the new gliders coming on the market are very strong and keep the flight on the asymmetric collapse. But you have more aspect ratio, especially with a C2 liner. That means it's not the collapse. It's the best problem.

It's flight envelope and the glider must stay in a flight envelope. And this is the education. This is a little bit shame on my point of view. The Federation, they don't work in ALP. They don't work in ALP to follow this evolution. The education is more or less, it's not true, but it's more or less the same than 30 years ago. Okay, run, run, run, break. Okay. On a flight. And now it's finished. I don't know why we should not have the same way to the aviation. We start with A. You want to go to the B. You go to the guys who sell you the glider or to the instructor. You have a little

bit short explanation or short condition, and you can do that. If you want to go further, you must have a clinic or whatever. Every category, you should have a kind of education. Some pilots don't need that because they are just talented. But some other pilots say, oh, no, I cannot have me in my 100 kilometers. I would change the wings and they are in danger. Let me put this out on record. What you have said is pure gold. And I'm so

Aninder: glad you spoke it out because hands down, we as a community are failing the newer pilots who are joining the sport with the new technologies because the gliders are getting faster. more efficient, maybe impart knowledge and teach people how to fly is obsolete. And it's high time that we try and change it. So I think maybe work group 60 or something like that should be constituted just to make sure that when it comes to teaching, paragliding needs to be refined and done in a way that allows new pilots to feel much more safe and secure when they're tasting the art of flight. Yeah, for me, that makes sense. And also, we have to save our sport against the insurance. Because if we have more accidents, and we

have some countries that have some problems with the tandem, for example, because they fly out a lot, that means more flights, more possibility to have some accidents. But anyway, every paragliding accident, it's something that costs a lot to the society, to the insurance, and also for the personal peer-to-peer, for the pilot, their handicap after. for the serious accident. And yeah, for me, I don't understand why some now we have more than 40 years experience in this sport and the Federation just fighting for the airspace and fighting a lot. I don't say it's not good, but we need that also to defend our sport from the authorities. But I guess it would be more credible if

we can have a kind of following and follow the pilot and it doesn't cost so much, but I do get more interest for the pilot also. Say, okay, I want to have a big glider after my head because I want to change and to cross the valley. Okay. Now you have to take care of that. And if I take the example in Switzerland, we have a theoretical exam. I would like to say quite a high level, but why to do that so high? The basic, more basic, more accessible for everybody. But after you follow the pilot during the progression. It's good for the sport. It's good for people because they

will earn a lot of money. It's good for the manufacturer because you will buy A, B, C, D. It's good for the security. It's good for the insurance. I don't see any bad point to go on this. And this exists for normal aviation. I fly ultralight. I cannot go in an airfield and say, okay, I would like to fly the Piper or the Robin or whatever. No, it's not possible. Yeah, I fly three axes. But I must have a transition, I must have a course to be able to take another machine. I was thinking about this the other day that any other form of aviation requires so much more

Aninder: certification that they make you go through before you get under the wings is next level. It's only paragliding that you can wrap up in a backpack, walk up the mountain and just do whatever you want with it. The risk versus reward is variable with respect to the sport. But I want to talk to you a little bit about triple savings, Alain, and I know I'm deviating from the topic a little bit, but the reason for that is because we're speaking about the dangers that come with paragliding. One thing that comes to my mind is that no other sport in human history, be it aviation or on the ground, has seen so many fatal or serious accidents at the elite level. What I'm wondering is, Are we doing something wrong as a

Aninder: community where even the top of the line pilots are paying the heaviest price sometimes when racing against each other? Or is this just the way it is supposed to be? Like, can something be done about it from your perspective? Because you are handling quite a big part of how the sport is progressing with respect to certifications. Yeah, I stopped competing to compete in 1990. Because for me, it was crazy to take the

risk of a collision and to continue and to go in a lay and to take a lot of risks to have a chocolate medal for nothing. Even if it's just chocolate.

Aninder: Oh man, that's quite a bit. Yeah, go on. And yeah, for me, I lose, I don't want to say I lose the passion. But at the beginning, it was super nice

because it was maximum time in air. It was landing precision. But at the glider, it was not made to go in the distance. I appreciate to see the performance on the X-Alp or even the super final. That doesn't make so much vibration. I see them a thousand in the same thermal waiting the start. It's buffed. But yeah, the question is, I would like to say, from my point of view, paraglider, it's a paraglider. Paraglider, it's a toy. Toy, we must play with the toys. And a good pilot knows how to play with the toy. That means it's a top landing, it's a spiraling, it's to get

fun with the glider. If you want to do some distance, you take a hang glider. And if you want to do the real distance, you take a sailplane. And paraglider has some limits. Okay, now it's flying at 70 km per hour at full speed. This is a CCC glider. This is just amazing. When I was flying for certifications at a glider, I said, wow, it's impressive. And we are full bar and 70 and you say, now I have to collapse the glider. But I guess it's not adapted. Maybe it's open for too many people. Again, if you have a real education, If you go in a national competition and slowly, it's

like a Formula N. Formula N, you attend for 15 pilots, but 20 pilots on the world. And paraglider can be 150. And we don't manage the level of everybody. And yeah, again, it's the education. The education should be more soft. Coming in a competition, there should be more knowledge, more soft. And playing Y in the X-Alp, there's no problem. Almost no problem with the pilot because they're super good pilots. It's the best pilot in the world. And they manage a lot of conditions. The takeoff, landing, difficult. This is something, it's a wow. It's a huge package. After the national competition, it's a rescue every task. And the PVC is a rescue every task. And I don't know if it's normal. I don't have the

solution. For me, I'm just pointing out, if it's normal, we can accept that during the flight, we, okay, we go, we take a risk and suddenly, poof, we take the rescue because it's not going well. And this rescue is the best opportunity and the best way you get a pilot can do because we have a lot of fatalities also last year and terrible fatalities because the pilot, the French pilot was super unwell. But that means something. It was a good pilot, but good enough. A good pilot in flight, okay? But a good pilot must also take responsibility according to where to fly, not so close to the ground, and not to say, okay, now if I have a problem, I have to have the time to rescue. Makes sense. I'm going to deviate from the

Aninder: topic again, but CCCs is very interesting for me. Do CCCs even have certification, or is it just some sort of load testing or something like that? Because I never see CCC test reports out there. Have I missed something here? Now Seville, the Seville, they created their own

rules. They created their own rules because for sure EN was too demanding. It was too demanding. Not especially that of glider. It's very sensitive for the lines, for the stretching or shrink ring. And it's difficult to keep the, these centimeters tolerance to be in a frame of the certification. But it was not, not about that. It was also because they want to have a more fair play competition together. But we test only the extra small at maximum weight, 95 kilos. It's not so much, but just to prove the glider is flyable, a load test, for sure. And after the manufacturer, they declare the glider, it's on the same homotasy than the extra size. And we provide some plan, some documentation, the CVL

group, they can check the glider and the place. the r11 from ozone was that also a triple c glider or did it have an en certification or some other equivalent certification at the time when it came out no r11 no it was under the prototype it was no certification if i remember yeah yeah it was that also ccl they react also because they react to avoid too much to have a kind of a george on the glider to avoid to have too much prototype coming. It's not possible to fly properly and the glider is too dangerous and they want everything. So basically the triple C of today

Aninder: is low tested for sure. And then just the smallest sizes are going through similar testing mechanisms as A, B, C, D. Any other bigger sizes are basically to a normal audience is just low tested gliders. Yeah, it's just a test glider. And it's not ABCD, more or less. The glider

should fit the CCC requirement. The C is a special rule made by the CAVL. It's nothing based on the EN. Can you quickly tell our audiences what

Aninder: they are in a nutshell, basically? How do they differ from EN? Yeah, we have the official requirement for EN LTF. And the result is ABCD. This is

exactly the same. Okay. And after we have the requirements, this is made by the CVL. And this is especially for the competition. And there are the internal rules, but they give us some glider to test in flight or to see if the glider is sustained a flight envelope properly according to the CVL rules. And we pass the load test according to EN. Yeah, no, my question was that how does the CCC rules differ from the EN rules? What is the

Aninder: essence of CCC rules? What are CCC rules all about? The CCC rules was to have some gliders and it was not technically limitation by the

standards. They can go a little bit further. For example, the trim for the EN LTF, we are the tolerance for the total line length. It's one centimeter, zero plus one centimeter. And in the serial rules, it's a plus minus four centimeters. That means the pilot can trim the glider according to what we like, to which feeling, and also according to the condition. If you have to climb in the thermal or the more... I'm so glad

Aninder: we touched about the topic of trim because one thing that comes to mind is when we talk about low category gliders, a lot of pilots do not trim their gliders as often. Of course, ones who are racing, competing, they love to make sure that it flies the fastest and it's keeping the balance and the shape of the profile. But when we talk about E and B gliders or low C gliders, maybe there are pilots who are not trimming it for a hundred hours or so. Does the certification of a glider have a possibility of changing because the trimming is not really done and the lines have

Aninder: either shrunk a little bit or elongated a little bit as per the use? Yeah, the glider, especially with a modern glider now, because it's less

line, it's more aspect ratio, it's more the lightest material, for example. It's very important to check the glider regularly because the glider is moving. Take example, if the pilot is doing one spiral always on the same side, for sure, one half part of the geometry lines will shrink differently, will move differently. And it's about also the responsibility for the... Generally, I would like to say the glider will come a little bit slower by the time. It's nice to give the glider to the check control to trim it properly. It keeps it safer. If you do the control, you don't lose your guarantee from the manufacturer. Because if you have a problem, or it can be an accident, and the authorities make a

check of the material, they say, yes, but the material should be controlled two years ago or one year ago. And we don't have any logbook. We don't know how many flights. It's super important to respect that. For the pilot, for the manufacturer, for everybody. So basically, if

Aninder: the glider is out of trim, the collapse behavior could also be more violent. Is that statement correct? I would like to say, yeah,

collapse. This is a big word, the collapse, because a lot of people are just focused on the collapse. But what is a collapse? Why a collapse occurs? And this is a big question. And often, take example, the collapse of a cure, a strong thermal. Strong thermal, we know that. One turn of wing, boom, en bas. But often, I would like to say for the normal pilot, A, B, A, B, C, it's often because you start to lose the flight. Because you don't understand. You can just look at YouTube. Many accidents. The pilot loses the flight and what happens? Poof, he releases, dive forward, collapse. And this is super dynamic collapse. And even with the A glider, you can start in autorotation because it's

too dynamic and you already provide the storm movement. And yeah, for me, when we organize with Air Turquoise and I do a little less, the SeaCourse, the SeaPlanet, we don't focus too much on the collapses because the collapses, when you collapse, The glider is absolutely not representative of what you will get in air. That means we prefer to walk on a flight envelope or go in a minimum speed. Minimum speed, full stall, up, back fly, coming back to reopen the glider and to let fly. To start the spin, you take 50% and pull one side. You must control the dive forward. This is important to understand the glider. By the collapse in a safe course, you cannot understand so much what's happened because it's not

really representative. If you get a collapse or cravat after the full stall, it's nice because you can work on the cravat to collapse, to take a line, to stall one side of the glider or whatever. You have many possibilities. But you must train that because we saw some pilots that are in a cravat and they are just a focus to And just like you say goodbye to your girlfriend at the train. No, you have some action to do, some action. And collapse should not really happen because you should anticipate that. And if you have the dive forward, you should be able to go and stop this dive forward and put this energy at least. And when you stop that, after you should be also able to release because you must have

speed. But this is difficult for people to understand. I understand. It just comes by practice. You can see the difficulties of the glider. You can see also the flight test report because the break range, this gives some information also. You can have a sea glider and see almost everywhere, but the break range is very small, very short. That means you don't have so much margin. The behavior is nice, but you lose the flight very fast because you are a little bit too much in the break. The stall point is too small. And I'm so glad you mentioned the

Aninder: certification report because I was about to come to this. As users, as customers, we are just going out there and basically looking at test reports because that is what all we have other than the marketing that any brand puts on their website. But the point is that When a pilot is trying to choose a glider and they are going through the test reports, what are the topics they should pay special attention on? And what are the letters they should be focusing on? Because as you said, a lot of them are very low classification. So just tell our listeners a little bit about test reports and how to read them better. Like I said before, certification is one little centimeter in the total time of use of the

glider. we should take care and for example i would like to say big ears this is a stupid maneuvers but if you need action to reopen the big tips that can that can give something that mean the tips is little bit sensitive you can have nice behavior and asymmetric collapse but that mean maybe you should work a bit for to reopen the developed spin if the glider stay in a little bit more you know they didn't recovery very fast the developed spin that mean maybe he will have the problem in a minimum speed is complicated because i would like to say now the manufacturer they know how to work properly or like i said before the collapses it's a lot of manufacturer you can have even on a c glider or d glider you can have

the glider doesn't turn almost nothing but yeah my first recommendation is to avoid to take the highest class Because you're thinking you will go, you will do more kilometer. Man, you must have a choice. You cannot try everything, but you must have a choice between two, three gliders. And after you must try it. You must put your butt on the harness and to try it, to feel the glider. Because what you fly, I will probably not like. What I fly, you will probably not like. And that's why it's so many manufacturers on the market. That means you must, yeah, you must find what is fitting for you. And this is a feeling. Some glider, you need, some pilots, they need the glider more stable. Some other pilots,

they need one centimeter path reaction. And this is personal. If you have some B category, you can check how many B you have on the report. That means it can define already low B and high B. Because also the high B, a lot of high B coming from C. They're trimming a little bit differently in the path on high B. and already choose that. Before you change a glider, you must be able to exploit it, to do everything with your glider 100%. You should know your glider at 100% before to change a glider. And the only way to do that is probably go to these festivals that happen and try out

Aninder: and test flight. Because no matter what amount of information is there on the websites, it does not replace the real world flying conditions that you will experience yourself. Makes sense. Alan, I quickly want to talk a little bit about Rust. Rust has been around for quite a while in paramotors, and BGD has given it in their Diva E&D wing. Parakites are coming out in huge force. People are accepting them everywhere. The market is growing like anything. Are we looking at a lot of work for the Workgroup 6 in time to come with Rust and Parakites in the making in coming times? Now, I guess we should understand one thing. The WZ-6 developed the standard for the paraglider. And for me, we should take

care to don't take every branches of the paraglider in the paraglider. What I mean, it's a paraglider, it's a paraglider. We know what is a paraglider. But mini wings, speed riding, mustache, ECC, I would like to say two-liner, it's a kind of branches going together. come from the main part of the trees and the standard they were we are working just on the main things this is again i come back to this education if you want to go on mini wings no problem there are super mini wings but you go for the certain qualification education we should do that i can fly it's a very light fabric it's different to consider on the glider And that doesn't need to be complicated or expensive. Just some advice. That's why it's

super difficult for us because we cannot take in charge everything. And some gliders and mini-wing. How do you want to test that in flight? It's just not possible. We are trying to fly to test some procedure at nine meters. But it's impossible. Single skin and another branches is the same. It's a super nice glider. But at the end, the standard was not made to test that. We can arrive more or less good. Some manufacturer was not happy because it didn't pass the first time. I said, yes, but we have to follow. Yeah, but it's not the same. I said, yes, but we have to follow that. You want the end? You have to follow that. That's all. That's all. And that means when I see this working group, it's not easy to go very fast

because all the process of normalization, it's heavy. It's super heavy. We should already work on technical. And after this technical, we have to make some word on these sentences for the standardization wording. And after, you should go to the inquiry to all European countries. And after that, come back with a comment and blah, blah, blah. The process, it's between three to five years before to publish. That doesn't mean, that doesn't include the whole work behind, before. It makes sense. A thought comes to my mind that as we spoke about in the

Aninder: beginning of the show, DHV or AFNOR had their own shortcomings and limitations with respect to how much ground or explanation they were covering with their collapses. With EN, of course, new technologies keep on arising, which are falling outside the envelope of EN. And even within EN B category, which you are saying that will probably get addressed very soon with low B, high B, and mid B sections. And C, the two-liner class since the past two, three years has just blown up. So there are a lot of branches which are coming up, which are falling outside the usual norms that the industry was used to. But the majority of a lot of manufacturers out there are opting in just for load test. So my

question here or a thought that comes to my mind is, are we eventually looking at standards getting obsolete and just load testing being the way to go? Because free flight is taking its own shape and free flight is not bound by any restrictions. Is that where the industry is progressing? I don't know if the market is adult enough to go on this way. Unfortunately. Yes, it's complicated with all these branches going on

every side. That's why we speak often too much on what the WGCs can do. But it's your problem. You have to solve that. Yes, I would like to say what the Federation is doing for the education, to save the sport, to protect the pilots.

It's difficult for them because we call that free flight. Vol libre. And people, they're thinking, oh, easy. They ship. They're absolutely not expensive. It's quite expensive, but I can fly where I want, where I can. It's super good. With all this problem of the disturbing for some private community or whatever. No. For me, we are working a lot on WG6. We do a lot of effort. We try to, we are a school group and super motivated. And I'm a little disappointed from the Federation because they are meeting, it's not true, two times per year because they're working together. But from my point of view, they're missing some real action to follow the development of the sport. And they are far behind. But also

because they are totally busy by the administration, paperwork, airspace, law, or whatever. We're missing the target because this is the same for any company. For example, we said for one certification, 25% or 30% is technique. The rest is all administration. To check the conformity of the glider, to fill up the paper for to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now to try to reduce that, and we develop a specific program for us to help us avoid some extra work here. Thought comes to my mind, Ellen, I would love to point this out right now, because AI is

Aninder: blowing up when it comes to administrative work all across the world. So let's say in years to come, AI takes away some of that load. And then all of that paperwork and everything is taken care of when humans don't need to invest so much time, energy and money in that direction. Then do you see the will and the structure existing to address these issues or is the effort required in some other direction that we are completely missing the point and paperwork is just an excuse that we are making right now? This is a general problem for the society. administration. We have too

much on this world and not enough in the paragliding world. I see all these young people, they don't find work. They make a juridical education or lower education. We have to create the rules. And we are just bashing in rules. Nobody will take the responsibility. And you must disclaim everybody. And this is a main problem. You must have authorization. You must show the insurance. We have some this morning, some manufacturer ask us, ask us the liability insurance from Premier Turquoise. And I said, yes, but this is the first time someone asked that. Yeah, yeah. But people, they don't want, nobody want to take the risk. And it's for the customer, our customer. he has that first thing

Aninder: thanks for your honesty man i wish there were more people like you out there who were able to speak this out so bravely because a lot of people are just so politically correct these days which makes it hard to hold a honest conversation so i i love that with you and thank you for taking your time from your schedules it's quite a pleasure so i'm not going to keep you very long anymore elaine but before i we stop closing this Podcast, I quickly want to talk to you a little bit about reserves and harnesses because paragliding has EN and World Group 6, which have addressed a lot of its issues and the whole ecosystem is thriving around it. But when it comes to harnesses, new technology is being thrown

around. Somebody's saying that we have Oricami. The other one, I'm forgetting the name. What was that? Choroid. Of course, there is the foam protection. Innovation will not stop and experimentation will also not stop. But how does certification of harnesses look like? And what can customers expect when they buy a new harness? Where do they know that this is safer than the other? How do you look at it? And if you can tell our audiences a little bit about harness certification. I can be sure with that. Structural part of the harness, it's nobody need to be

worried because it's the requirement that's so high. This is absolutely no problem when it's certified. Impact pad, if I use the term impact pad, is to avoid to use a back protector. Because a back protector, to protect your back, the only way to protect your back is to don't fall and to stand on your feet. This is clear. The impact pad, that helps the pilot if suddenly after the takeoff, you are a little long and you release your legs and a poor foot touch or at the landing, you miss it. You miss your landing, you can't have a little bit protection. About the technology, what is certified is not one better than the other one. It's just about the choice, what you want to do, what you want to have. It's one

technology, it's quite rigid. Form, it's another technology, it's an old technology, and we know the form. It's a tech. Usually, it's a little bit bigger than the other protection. You can It's quite big to pack. Airbag, we know the airbag also from a long time ago. The airbag, they have some advantages, some disadvantages. All this technology, it's good, I would like to say. And probably they are safe for a lot of people. What I mean for that, it's about the test. We test one position, one dummy, 50 kilos, releasing from 165. That means if you have to two centimeters of the protection, the glider, the dummy will fall from 163. If you are one meter, the dummy will fall at 65 centimeters. That

means everything is fallative. For the X-Alp, we had some manufacturer bring some aluminum or some little foam or a little thing. It's just like that. It's just the impact point from the butt to the dummy for to have the certification. And that worked. That's why it has a chocolate bar,

Aninder: basically. Yeah, Swiss.

Yeah, an expensive and a good chocolate bar. But that's what scares me about the harness is that it's so easy to navigate your way around the tests. As a customer, it's unlikely that you will impact in the ideal position. What do you go out and place your trust in? Because anything in this market is quite expensive. It's quite a lot of money. But if it still does not give you a peace of mind, then it's catch-22 situation to be in. When you go out with your money and want to buy the best product out there. For us, it's totally clear. We test according to the standard. Boom.

It's like that. After, I would like to say, it's also the customer to go and to look at what are the different possibilities the customer has to buy a product. Okay, I'm 63 years old. I fly a little bit less. I need good protection. Why I should have a little box under my butt? I will, I will choose a foam or airbag or corrige or whatever, make something. Okay. I'm young, I can fly. I don't need back protector. I can take a little airbag in case that doesn't cost anything. 400 grams, I can carry that. This is the responsibility of everybody. Paragliding is not meant for

two-fold. But if you want to avoid that, you should have a good education. If you fall, you don't have a good enough education. That's a good answer. I think I can be pleased with that. It's a little bit easy, but actually, just imagine the manufacturer. It's like what I said, the glider was tested the 1st of January to 21 of December, and the first client will have a problem whenever it tests. And this is the manufacturer, he tried to develop the good protection. But the first crash is something you were never thinking it can happen. Because the guy said he falls on the breast, for example. And falling on the breast or falling in the front, that can break your back also. And that happens

often. Okay, let's say when I look at a harness, of course, having it streamlined, having the smaller cross-section area makes a lot of

Aninder: sense when it comes to cutting through air and managing the wind resistance that comes with your equipment. But if foam, even though it's having a bigger size compared to the other ones, is the most foolproof protection out there, compared to any other protector. And the bigger, the better. Is that the norm here? What's your take on the best harness with respect to protection out there? It's difficult to

say. It's always about the compromise. If you agree to carry the foam, yeah. Yeah, if you have a 40 centimeters foam, it's good. But if you are also the airbag free foam, internally with the foam, it's super good. Everything is good. Everything was always about the compromise between the pilot, what we want to carry, which volume you will have to have to your bag, to your rucksack. It's complicated. When I crashed in certification and I have a super good harness with a super good foam and broken my back, my shoulder plate and spin and I was more or less explode. And I was a super good harness, but I fall in the side. Yeah, I know. I agree. I can leave that for the audiences to decide for themselves

Aninder: whenever they go out and do their own research, I would say. That is the key here. But let's talk a little bit about reserves, Alain, because I have seen five meters per second is the usual desirable descent speed. But a number of times I've seen reserve parachutes out there which have got higher than five meters. And of course, if we are flying in a place which is thinner air or high altitude, big mountains, then the descent speeds are much higher. How does reserve certification look and what is the ideal descent speed that one should look for when choosing a reserve? Now, the idea of the rescue testing is to check, first of all, the stability, the sink rate, and opening time. Why 5.5 meters per

second? This is related to the harness impact pad, also with the 165 that corresponding more or less at 5.5 meters per second. That's why both numbers are related together. The rescue is tested with that glider to avoid any influence of the glider. That's why it's possible for us to check the stability of the rescue. Because if you have the glider with you, you can manage the glider and you can control the stability of the rescue. Again, everything is tested in exactly the same way. And I would like to say even better than the paraglider, because the weight is going to be adjusted to the standard atmosphere. That means if the glider, the rescue, it's a test. That means the rescue is tested according to the sea

level. That means if you crash at 2,000 meters or 3,000 meters, for sure, you will not have the same behavior. after it was something super interesting we experiment a few years ago it was one guy he was participated to the x-alp and during the training he crashed he crashed he broke the back he said oh this rescue is just a big bullshit he's created a lot of bad news from the other pilot you should not use this rescue it was a light rescue okay he come to the office And we come with a manufacturer also. And he said, I would like to test again my rescue

because I'm sure it's something wrong. I'm sure something is just wrong. I said, OK. But it's strange because the maximum weight of this rescue is 85 kilos. And you are already 95 kilos naked. Plus your material. I start to be about 95. Exalt material is not so heavy. 105 or something like that. Yes, but I don't agree. I crash, I break my back. Okay, no problem. I say, okay, I can fly at 105 kilos and I go, I can, I can. No, but I crash at 2,500 meters. We must calculate at which weight we must fly. I say, yes, but this is totally out of the standard. Now you bring

some layer. It's not really fair, but it's interesting. Okay, we calculate which way it will be at 2,500 meters. And it was 140 kilos. 140?

140 kilos. Wow. Yeah, that will be a good challenge to start. To start with the glider. I said, okay, I take my ballast, I take my glider, I go to take off over the lake. At this moment, we were in a collaboration with Flytech to develop a waterproof instrument, special for the sink rate of the rescue. And before, he said also, yeah, but my glider, I didn't have any time to bring back my glider. That means I would like to check what is in the down plane. I go over the lake, a thousand meters, up, show the rescue, steering my glider on the down plane, all part of the flight,

poof, I raise the glider, and poof, landing in the lake. And it was super interesting when we checked the result, because in down plane, it was 15 meters per second. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. And after it was 5.8 meters per second at 140 kilos for the rescue was given for 85.

That means it was super interesting. That means the rescue didn't increase so much as this type of rescue, I would like to say. I don't know if we can have a generality of that. But the down plane, it was just impressive result. Just impressive result. That means when you see some pilot, they crash or they are sketched and they throw the rescue, the behavior with the glider should be appropriate. You should bring the glider to us and if you have time, for sure. After we have some gliders and some steerable also going always with the wind, It's quite complicated, and I guess the pilot told the rescue he should be happy to be alive. Agreed. Rescue itself is quite... That's what saved your

life. The rescue saved your life. Congratulations. After, we can just speak about maybe to the question if the square one is better than the round one. And only what we can say is maybe the square one is a little bit more stable than the round canopy. This is only the advantage. Okay, but

Aninder: which one opens faster? It's the same. It's the same opening time, it's according to the surface, to the area. If you have a rescue for 100 kilos,

but we have 20 meters or 60 meters, the 20 meters will open very fast, the 60 meters will be open for too long, and the sink rate will be 3 meters. You know what I mean. That means you should find a compromise and see what you want. If you fly normally, why take ultralight rescue with five meters per second? If you can have 200 grams more at five meters per second. So I quickly want to ask, the mixture, the combination of square and round,

Aninder: does that make a difference or is it just marketing? My point of view is make difference. It makes a difference in terms of stability. But you're telling me that the square shape is the most stable shape out there for rescues. Yeah. But now the RON is still efficient because we

used that from a long time ago, from 1890. The big advantage now for the RON1, it's less expensive. Now that's so true. Yeah. That means it's more accessible for pilots that don't have so much money. I think a little bit easier to pack as well. I think round canopies are the easiest

Aninder: pack. Sure. Round canopy, it's 100% without any problem. And square also, you must sink in. How about Rogalos? Rogalos also have a lot less sink rate. And the opening time seemed to be fairly okay. Do you see them as a decent option as well? Or are they too complicated just because of repacking mechanisms and everything around them? I will not have so many friends after that, but I don't care. My personal opinion about the

Roguelo is good for the pilot, the acro pilot, for example. They know how to use it very fast. And it's again, it's a kind of, for me, it's the same. You must have education and you must train because it's not like a round, you push and you wait. Now you must untwist, you must steering, you must have education. From my point of view, a rescue should be very simply working 100%. That means easy packing, easy towing, and working to save your life. It's a wing, it's a flying wing, especially in B4. Now they can have some regalo, they have free break, and they're going down like the

normal parachute. But every flying wing, and because we test a lot with helicopters and base jump wings, Every time these swings, regalo or whatever, going with the wind. That means that go to the wind. I have a pilot recently asked me, I have a regalo, can you pack it? I can pack it. It's not my favorite, but I can pack it. But why you have a regalo? Because it's good. I can avoid the trees. I can avoid the power line. I can avoid the cliffs. Yes, but if you are still twisted in the regalo, make you in the power line or in the tree or in the cliff what ah yes i said are you

already told that and i see of course and try it and i know it's a super good syncrate yeah the syncrate absolutely it's a super good but it's something is flying that means it's already a speed then the speed plus the speed of the wind If you are not twist and if you are not aware how to steering or how to take over, because you have to manage the stress of the incident also. And maybe you are not so high yet. You try the rescue. Maybe you were thinking first. That's why I'm not convinced. I saw a lot of lot. Some manufacturer coming for certification that they did

overline or mistake on the packing or fixing the rescue on the wrong side or different things like that. For me, rescue should be 100%. No doubt about mounting, about packing, about whatever. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. But to sum it up, use Rogalo if you have the education to use it.

Aninder: If you don't, then try and stay away. Use a safer option, the more easier one in this case. Yeah. That means education takes time on the heli for

the Rogalo. You have to throw, you have to pack, you have to understand some configuration. And you must have some releasing system from the glider and with the speed system. or to know how to to bring back the glider and after we have the glider how to untwist to be able to take the break indeed a lot of variable i prefer a square one on one you throw the rescue it's open and you concentrate you bring the glider you concentrate to the ground and say okay you bring and you prepare yourself to the landing on the crash indeed I think we have covered a wide

Aninder: range of topics so far, Alain, and I think that is what all the research that I've done and all the curiosity that I had. One thing that I forgot to ask you was that I was reading the 926 second revision standard, and it said a fully detailed manufacturing record shall be supplied by the manufacturer when it comes to testing. Do you know about it? And what does a fully detailed manufacturing record mean? What is that all about? I'm very curious. That means recall certification, but it's not really. Actually, it's conformity control. of one model. It's

referenced by the serial number. That's correct, yes. We receive this product with one serial number, and we check the conformity to this glider. In flight, in load test, two different gliders. We don't use the same. In flight and load test, the manufacturer provides the line plan, the manufacturer provides design construction, list of material, and everything. That means The test RDS should be able to produce the glider just based on the information the manufacturer gives us. I do not understand that. That, hello, I'll re-begin. The manufacturer should provide one glider for the flight test and one glider for the load test. Both are referenced by the serial number, okay? And the manufacturer

should provide also for the glider the line plan. Yeah. the design construction, the whole information that we should be able to reproduce the glider or to build the glider according to all this information. In case of a problem, we take this glider, we take the documentation, and we compare. Everything is fitting on the same. So re-verifying, basically. Yeah. We check the glider. We check the quality of the line. We check the resistance of the line because it's a part of the calculation. We check if the fabric using for the canopy is the same what is described on the documentation. And at the end, all this information, if suddenly we have a problem with a big accident and one

judge asks us some documentation, the judge with this documentation should be able to reproduce, to build again this glider on the same way. Makes a lot of sense. It's also a good protection for the manufacturer because the manufacturer knows every file is with us. And if in case of problem, we can take that and say, yes, look, that's correspond, that's matching. It's the same glider, same material, same thing. That's why it leads further. It's important that every pilot must have the check of the glider regularly. or to keep this frame, or to keep this conformity. When the certification is finished, the conformity, it's beginning from this serial number. But all these prototypes before, it's not

included. Yeah. I think with the amount of details that you've mentioned, your daily routine and work life must be super hectic in Air

Aninder: Turquoise. It seems like you guys have to do a lot of things and you're a very small team, but serving the community in probably the best way possible, isn't it? No, it's super interesting because first of all, we are in the secret of the new development and new technology. After, it's

a huge, huge work for us because we should shut up.

No, it's super important because some manufacturer, they bring us the new model. Yeah. But the previous model is not released yet. Not released yet. But the previous model, it's okay. It's certification in June. But they're thinking to, they're planning to sell the glider, the previous model to January. If we say we are testing that, it's finished. The manufacturer, he can forget to sell the previous glider more. That means the discretion is super, super important. That's why we are nice in Villeneuve also because we work together and we don't have so much highs behind and it's very nice. The contact with manufacturer and developer is also super interesting. It's super to see different point

of view. Actually, to see the passion in our eyes for everybody, it's just a magic. I don't mean to put you in a spot, but since you talked about

Aninder: passion, do you have a favorite manufacturer, like the ones which always have their wings really nice and which always does all the paperwork up to the mark and are the most professional out there? Can you repeat? I got my answer. No, it's difficult. I cannot. Everybody, we

like, some manufacturers are more complicated than others. Some manufacturer, they're like, it is not complicated for to, to more big it is, more professional they are, more easy it's to work with them. But at the end, it's everybody, they come here. It's, it's not, it's not a sanction. It's not, oh no, we work together. That means we have work to do. We work according to the standard, but it's not the policy of the sport. The glider pass or doesn't pass. And for that, we have the standard. And some manufacturers, for sure, they need help because they are just alone, not so many people, and it's difficult for us to provide all documentation. But that's why we don't like them, I would

like to say. I was actually starting to think about it because we've seen some manufacturers which have their own factories. They're like,

Aninder: okay, we can sell thousands of blinders every year, and that's why we can afford to have our own factories. And then there are smaller manufacturers which go to factories which produce for them. Let's say one man team. There are a lot of brands which are just designers and they're outsourcing everything else to others. And we talk about small teams, one man armies, which are very important to keep the competition healthy because monopolization in any user centric market is not very good for the consumers. So when we talk about increasing the competition amongst manufacturers, I was wondering, why is certification so expensive? Is there a way around it for manufacturers

entering this? Or is it that, hey, this is an amount which you have to cater for if you have to get in? Because I believe certifying five different sizes of the same wing will amount to a huge budget, which includes R&D and all of that. Can you talk a little bit about the expense behind certification and why does it make so much sense to spend that? Yeah, the expense, I would like to say we have some charges to pay. We have

to, it's quite a lot to pay the pilot, to pay the infrastructure, the insurance and everything. This is normal in every society, every company. The certification is a cost, yeah. But if we would like to have, to thinking as Ertugruz and the same under the normal company, the business company, the price should be three times more to have some benefit. But we know we cannot do that. At the end, what is the most cost for the manufacturer is all the development before the certification. They have to fly the glider, they have to work on the glider, they have to trim the glider, they have to do everything to come to us. Like you said before, what is the best? Receive the glider, everything is clear, pass

the first time, proof is finished, we have the documentation. And some manufacturers, they complain because It's too expensive, but they don't work on the glider, and it's failed. It's failed, you start again the process. And that means, yes, it's a cost. It's a huge cost. Like you said, five sizes, plus we keep the glider in archive for five years. That means five gliders is blocked for five years. And after we destroy one glider for load test, that means it's something about 50,000 euros. Yeah. More or less. But still, you guys are not making it super

Aninder: profitable. Like you are, in a way, giving back to the community, I believe. And it still does not make insane commercial sense for you because you're doing it out of passion as well, I believe. No, it's clear. It's clear. And like I said before, we work together. We

understand if we are too expensive, the manufacturer, maybe they will not certify five sizes. They will forget XL and XS. Three sizes because it's not so much market for XL, AP, and XS. It's a kind of combination altogether. It's everybody on the same pot, actually. Sometimes I

Aninder: wonder, Alain, who exactly is making money in paragliding? Because customers say that we are paying way too much. And the manufacturers are saying that the raw materials are getting more expensive than ever. So that's why we have to increase the prices. Factories are saying that we are selling the products to the brands at whatever price we can. So who is taking the big cut? Because paragliding isn't really a cheap sport anymore from what I've seen when I compare it to other forms of aviation. I guess nobody will be rich, but some companies, they can live not too

bad. Like I said, for us, it's difficult to make some money inside, but we can pay everybody and we're working in a good atmosphere and with passion. And yes, it's a kind of philosophy. If I want to be rich, maybe I can try to speculate on the bank or whatever, but this is not my thing. But if we take the COVID during the pandemic, it was super hard for a lot of people. But at the end, everybody survived. That means we are not rich, but what is rich? I'm rich with a good relationship, and this is enough for me. Indeed, that is so true, because the things which money can't buy

Aninder: are usually the priceless ones which you should care for. So I think on that note, we have touched upon most of the topics that I have listed. Anto, would you like to add anything that you feel we might have missed out on? No, John, I like to speak true. It was not always easy, according

to different situations. Some people, they were totally fed up of me, to myself. I think the Paralympic Atlas audience appreciates your

Aninder: honesty, Alan. So just be like this, man. The world needs more people like you. So do not change. Stay amazing. Stay awesome. And it's easy to

do that, yeah. Or be that. Got it, Alain. Before I close for today, we have a tradition here on the show where I request my guests to share one flight

Aninder: that has stuck with them throughout their lifetimes. So you have had numerous flights, you've put gliders in endless configurations. So if you can pick up one memory from your past and share it with our audiences, I'll be super thankful. I would like to say maybe two flights. I stopped

the competition very early and after I was super busy for certification flights, And yeah, for sure. And sometimes I'm missing some personal flight in real condition or something like that. But no, it was quite a lot of a good fight, good experience. But in certification, maybe I remember one flight just like that. It was with a tandem. And I had to perform the spiral. And the glider was in a huge neutrality spiral. And when I fight to get out, it was difficult, but I can get out. And my passenger was totally out of the conscience. I was quite a little bit also, because I see nothing. And after when we calculate and we check the instrument, the vertical speed was 40 meters per second. And yeah, 40

meters. 40 meters. 4-0. 4-0, yeah. And the speed by turn was 140 kilometers per hour. Matt, that's insane. How did you guys not black out? And it was blackout, but there was nothing at full blackout to be able to steer and to get out of the situation. And when I get the flight, the passenger was totally out of the, out of conscience. And I took my own turbulence and I get everything was a collapses. It was almost cravat and I was not so high and on the water. It was a huge and it was an amazing experience. It was an amazing experience. Did you think about quitting

Aninder: the sport at that point of time? No, no. It was interesting.

Oh, man. I'm going to make you say it was fun. 40 meters per second. What was the g-force? I'm very curious about knowing. I don't know, but it

was... I was almost painting my toenails. Do you think we exceed more than 9 g's in paragliding? I don't know. The situation by the G, and you can have, I don't know if you fly in a jet one time, in an army jet or something like that. But I had the opportunity to have an experience with a jet. And simply turn, curve like that, and you take already 3G. Ah. Again, G is created. The G-suit, yeah. The G-suit. And actually, it's about the time. It's about the time. If you stand up and you drop on your heels, boom, you tank. Maybe you take 1,000 G. But the time, it's a micro

millisecond. And that's why in paragliding, the lines are long. And it's difficult because you take the speed and the turn. And you have a lot of G. I don't know, 9G or whatever. But no, it's a lot of fun in certification. For example, you fly, you have a front collapse. And poof, you have two wings. This is something. But the one beautiful flight I did, it was in 2011. We flew close to Verbier. And the target was to turn around the Mont Blanc Massif. It was a beautiful flight to fly at 5,000 meters. And the end of August, it was perfect. It was super memorable. I can imagine you seem to be having a dream job for some, to say the least. I'm sure not a lot

Aninder: of people fancy stalling their wings every day, but you seem to have quite a lot of experience. A little soaring beside my home here on the sea

is good also. You even get time to do that. No, I haven't tried it yet. I thought all your life was just nothing but stalls. That's all you did?

Aninder: Just go out there, deform the wing, pull the brakes, and then come back. I'm pretty sure you can do all manuals with your eyes closed by now. Is that true? Almost, but it's not really secure. It's nice sometimes to do the full stall, or no, the deep stall, the deep stall without to see the

glider, just by the feeling. Yeah. True, true. This is super interesting. For me, that's a situation, it's a playing with a glider. And a lot of people, they must play more with the glider. This is my big advice. Sometimes you are in a cross country, you go apply, but sometimes on the side, you can just go a little spiral, take the thermal and you're playing with a break and try to go to land at the top. And this is something you increase your feeling on the glider. This is super important. Yeah. So true. From the past almost two hours, you have

Aninder: shared nothing but value. There's no single podcast that can do justice to your four decades of experience in paragliding. I think that's all we had time for this time around. More than happy to bring you back when the Work Group 6 brings out a new edition. Keep up the hard work, sir. Make the sport safer and more fun place to be. But it's been an absolute pleasure this time. We must not forget the fun also. That is the line to live by. Do not forget the fun. Thank you, Alain. It's been a pleasure. You're welcome, Alain. It was a pleasure to share that with you.