Storytellers : Marko Milutinovic (Mid-Air Collision)

There were incidents from the very beginning. Mid-airs every day, falling with reserves every day, serious injuries every day. The jury wanted to stop the competition for a day just so people can think through everything that happened because...

We had four pilots that were representing our country. Three pilots had problems, and they came back with broken gliders and lines. FLYCO, which is our competitor, came back in one piece. Everyone else were just having some sort of problems.

Since everything happened in a few seconds, it felt more, obviously. Everyone's story is that it lasted for 10 seconds, where it actually lasted three, because you just get so much information in those moments. The brain is... perceiving things differently so

one condition that made it worse is the system is full or full of air and it's a little thicker that way you don't really see as well you don't see your surrounding as well as you do especially people below you again i'm not we weren't really blaming any of the two that happened but suddenly it just many incidents happens they're probably 70-80% more than every other competition and something had to there was a reason for it

when you when somebody shoot your parachute and then you look up and you see a big hole that's pretty much what it looked like I noticed I'm missing half of my lines I think I had maybe four lines of B risers there everything else was snapped when I realized I don't have lines then I lost my last

Marko Milutinovic: what is up everyone welcome to paragliding atlas podcast the place where we talk all things paragliding in case you're new here i'm your host anindar singh and today you're tuning in to the season finale of the year 2024 and guess what guys this episode is a first of its kind which happens to be from a brand new selection of topics that we are introducing right here on the show called storytellers And that is because stories are something that leave a lasting impact on us. You know, time and again throughout the history of generations, we have seen that stories have proven to be a great tool for learning. So naturally, we decided to pick some of the most intriguing,

thought-provoking, and mesmerizing tales from the blue yonder to help us bring to you the latest and the greatest lessons that we can learn while we practice the art of flight in the most fun way possible. And for episode number one of Storytellers, joining us today is a very good friend of mine, and most importantly, a very humble person to talk to, who's been kind enough to share his unfiltered version of all that he went through, ensuring that if any of us happens to be in that situation, firstly, we know how it looks like. And secondly, what can we do to get out of it? But most importantly, how not to end up in one if possible in the first place itself. So just to put it out there, the purpose of starting

this series is not to have a clickbait title or something to gain more traction on the show, but instead it is to ensure that we as pilots can collectively contribute to safer skies, ensuring the highest levels of flight safety when we do what we love the most. And as I always say, if you like what you hear and would like to do your own bit in making the sport a safer place for fellow aviators, do consider hitting that like and subscribe button or dropping in a rating wherever possible. You know, these small acts of kindness from your end go a super long way in keeping the love growing while helping us stay motivated to bring out more awesomeness to you guys week after week. And now, without further ado,

this is Storytellers Episode 1 with Marko Milutinovich. I hope I'm saying your name correctly, Marko. If not, I promise I will make up for it in some other better way possible. But let's dive right in. And I would like to start here with a little bit of an introduction. For those of us who fly comps, we know how it looks like. And for those of us who have been in the sport for a while, we know a little bit of terminology. But for those of you who are joining us and who have just started the sport of paragliding, let me give you a little bit of a scenario of how the

competitive paragliding is. The thing is, in any competitive paragliding scenario, a lot of time, pilots often find themselves flying in gaggles. Now here's the funny part. If I have to be super honest with you, I tried looking up a dictionary meaning of the word gaggle and when I googled it up it just said a flock of geese flying together. But then I wanted to search a little bit more on it and then I dug up a little bit more and then I found Cambridge Dictionary which caught my attention which said the word gaggle is often used to describe a gathering of noisy or silly people. In simpler words, it can be called as unorganized cluster. Now, this definition is super important to remember, which

you'll understand why later on in the episode. In paragliding context, however, a gaggle can be defined a tight group of gliders, all climbing in the same thermal or flying or basically racing in this scenario along the same course line. This technique can be a super effective way to gain altitude very quickly or maintain position in a race but it also carries significant risks. The thing is with multiple pilots flying in close proximity there is very little margin for error and any mistake can lead to serious consequences such as mid-air collisions. And Marko happens to be a highly experienced competitive pilot from Serbia and has been participating in international competitions for quite some time now.

But today he is here to share not just one, but two instances of mid-air collisions during these events. And in this episode, we're going to break down these incidents, look at what went wrong, how he managed the situations, and most importantly, what can we all learn from his experiences? So ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls and everyone along with them, tune in and I hope you like it.

Let's dive into the first one. What year are we talking about and what was the situation? Where in the world are you in the sky and what was going on?

I think it was the World Championship in France. It was 2023. So France was just, it was a mess from the very beginning. It was really difficult

to handle all that pressure because the whole competition was difficult for many pilots that were not used to flying in Alps. They're not used to flying in the really straight lines over the ridges where there weren't many options left. So basically the whole gaggle had to go through the same path. most of the time. You could choose two different parts, but 90% of the racing was just following the first group. It wasn't really interesting because you cannot really overtake anyone. You cannot make a decision that is luckier or maybe smarter because you have to go through the same lines. If they were getting lift, you're getting the lift. If they were getting sink, you're getting the sink.

Pretty much whoever's first, if you make one small mistake, you're done. But the problem in France was There was really a lot of competitors in a really small area. So there were incidents from the very beginning. Mid-airs every day, falling with reserves every day, serious injuries every day. The jury wanted to stop the competition for a day just so people can think through everything that happened because it was just a luck that saved everyone. Because at the time when HEAT was thinking about stopping the competition, there were already three or four people with serious injuries in the hospital with broken bones. Some people just sitting for surgeries, collecting funds because it was

expensive for some pilots. I remember helping the Colombian pilots and a few other pilots, one pilot from Japan. Every day was a mess. And so they wanted to stop the competition. There was a lot of pressure going on. I think for everyone except for French because they're used to flying and they are Usually, technically, they're better. They're staying in the safer positions. They're usually high. They watch it from above. They know where to go. They know where to move. And they were really dominating the competitions. But at the same time, they were not going through everything that everyone else were. Where there's a strong desire to get better and to finish faster, but not really familiar with

the terrain made it really difficult. And there were some valley winds and some rain. And all kinds of things were going on. So pretty much everyone was nervous. And on top of all that, we had four pilots that were representing our country. Three pilots had problems and they came back with broken gliders and lines. Veiko, which is our competitor, came back with in one piece. Everyone else were just having some sort of problems. One guy went into a rain and then his glider stalled a bit. He couldn't fly over some three lines. So he just landed on threes, pretty much broke his glider, had to borrow another one so he can keep flying. The other guy made a mistake on his own. so he fell in the tree he was lucky

and then my incident happened also it was probably on the sixth day or so and it didn't even happen in the beginning of the race where you will expect it the most because a gaggle is there everyone is in the start cylinder it happened on the 70 or so in the race There was some rain going on. I remember a really simple thermal that we were into. And then this one guy that hit me, he didn't see me probably from above because of the new gliders and submarines that were just getting there. That was their first year. So submarine is blocking your viewpoint as well. It's just

an assumption. We didn't really do any forensics for this incident. But it was a time when people started to focus more on seeing the instruments because they were in the inside and that version number one had difficulties to see your instruments. So people could really have to focus more to see the digits and everything they wanted to see through the submarine. One condition that made it worse is the system is full of air and it's a little thicker. that way you don't really see as well you don't see your surrounding as well as you do especially people below you again i'm not we weren't really blaming any of the two that happened but suddenly it just many incidents happens they're probably 70-80% more

than every other competition. There was a reason for it, obviously. It wasn't just happening like that. Because there were other competitions before and after the French Championship, and we weren't having so many problems. So I'm pretty sure the equipment caused a lot of problems, plus having a specific terrain where we were in France. So when we were over there, the thermal that I was starting to talk about, that guy made a sharper turn and he hit me in the middle of the glider. And he was tied in my glider for maybe two or three seconds. And then he pushed himself away using his hands just to move his seat for my canopy. And when he got off, he pretty much in that move, he ripped my glider in the middle.

So I couldn't really fly anymore. I had no pressure in my brakes. That's very interesting. So both of you are flying ENZOs, which are triple C

Marko Milutinovic: wings and racing wings. And there's a submarine that comes and lands on your top center cell on the upper surface. And once the contact is removed, you're telling me that the glider surface got ripped just by those kind of contact? That sounds absurd, man. Like how can a glider material rip so easily? It actually rips off easily. It's much easier than you think, especially if adrenaline pops in and you're on top of my

canopy, for example. Your only choice is to rip that glider and move it away from your harness because that's your only way to keep flying or maybe not to throw a reserve because your paraglider is in perfect shape, right? So sometimes you're even dragging me for a little, putting more weight on your harness. Your canopy doesn't have to collide. You're going to fly just fine. You're just going to have more weight on it. But it all happens in seconds. One second, something's wrong. You're just dragging someone with your harness. The other second, you're trying to reach and grab that glider to move it away. And there are other forces that may be helping you to naturally get away from

the situation, like a turn or air that is just helping you maybe to pick the right moment. to push that glider away from your harness and just to keep flying. And that's what actually happened. The guy didn't want to rip my glider. He just wanted to move it away from his harness. But with such adrenaline and everything in it, you're probably really pushing really hard because you're getting a lot of strength in those situations. So he just moved it away and then my glider was already ripped. It was probably ripped from the hit in one spot and then the other spot when when he actually just moved it from his harness. So it had few holes in it while I was going down. But the glider was perfectly stable.

It was just not flyable because there is no pressure. It's just like those single-skin gliders. So the upper surface is gone and the brakes... Not the upper, the lower surface because he flied above. From the above... and hit the lower surface of the glider. Okay, so you

Marko Milutinovic: basically went under the lower surface. Exactly, under my glider. Because in a thermal, the glider is leaning back, getting some lift, and

it's easy to cut under it. You can't see it because I was taught it was like skiing and snowboarding. You should be taking care of people in front of you or below you because you see them and they don't see you. You can't afford to look up and around you you have to rely on somebody else's instincts and discipline there's no way i can see who's coming above me even if i have a lift and someone from above me is pushing the bar really hard even though he's higher he might end up in my canopy because i'm getting the lift and he's just going through much faster not getting

that much lift so i think it's just reasonable responsibility for all of us to take care of people you see in front of you and below you as much as you can. I didn't even see what happened. You see it at the very last second before it happens, but usually it's really too late to make a reaction. I think he didn't see me either because he wouldn't fly into me. He was a bit aggressive and a few other people were complaining about it. You always have pilots that are a little bit more aggressive. Usually in the segment of pilots, they are not top level because they're trying hard to

get the result. So they think the aggressiveness is something that's going to give them a little more edge. There are other top pilots also that are aggressive, but it's a different story because they have so much reputation. No one's going to hit Honoreen in the air because everybody knows where's Honoreen in the air because they're looking for his next move. So pretty much everyone's aware of where the top pilots are. But when you're not in the area of top pilots, then you're just like everyone else. So moments after impact, when the

Marko Milutinovic: disconnection has happened and that glider is doing its own thing and now there's no brake pressure, what's going on in your mind and what are the actions that follow? At that moment, I haven't thrown a reserve in my life before. It was a new experience for me. The first thing that was on my

mind is to look down and see how much time I have to throw the reserve. Fortunately, we were high enough, about 600 meters above ground level. There was plenty of time to wait and see what happens before throwing a reserve. Since everything happened in a few seconds, it felt more, obviously. Everyone's story is that it lasted for 10 seconds, where it actually lasted three, because you just get so much information in those moments. The brain is... perceiving things differently. So you see every little detail, everything around you because of the situation you're in. It felt longer, but in reality, when I look at the videos, everything took three seconds. When he snapped out of my

glider, I just normalized my flying. And actually, I kept going. I was still circling because I thought I was going to continue with my flight. But then when I realized I have no brakes, it just, from my experience, I didn't want to cause more trouble in that situation. And then everything was overwhelming. With what happened on the competition before that day and with all the injuries and everything, I felt even a bit of relief because I knew I was going to finish with this competition. You can call me a coward in the situation or anything, but it's a relief because I'm thinking like, I finally, I took my part in, this is a game of numbers. So now it was your turn to get hit by someone, to have a midair and

you're going to be fine. And maybe it's a good time to stop because I knew I couldn't fix my equipment in the same moment. And I knew I just needed to land. And for me, it's still going to be a good experience because my goals for the competitions couldn't be really high because of the level that I'm at, my flying and experience. So I wasn't going to make it to the podium or even my team wasn't going to make it to the podium. So there wasn't really a huge loss of the position and ranking. It was just a matter of going home safe and still have something good from France to

bring back as an experience. but overall it can be a good experience if you're not that selfish because people were struggling guy was collecting 50 grand just to get out of hospital so he can go back to colombia other guys having his everything destroyed from the equipment and some problems with their back marcella throw the reserve and hurt her back she came back to the super final in brazil but it was a lengthy period of not flying for her a lot of people were injured And it ruined the picture of this competition in France. I was pretty much lucky just to land and tell myself that finally it's over. Not for everyone. Competition is still going to be. People were flying the next

two days. But for me, it was over and I was okay with it. All right. That one seems to be a bit too traumatic for you to recollect. So I'm not going to

Marko Milutinovic: dive any deeper into this one unless you want to. Again, I'm guessing for some people find it traumatic. It wasn't really that traumatic for me

because if I didn't throw the reserve, I thought that was going to be the most traumatic thing in my life. But as soon as I saw my glider flying, no, I'm not going to be that scared for the few seconds of my life of having problems. It was a problem. It could be much worse if we were attached for a little longer because people were dying in such scenarios. but it wasn't that bad i don't want to make a big deal of it it was just a collision it did change a little bit in my approach when i was flying later nothing really to be scared of when you're back on the ground on a nice field and

your glider is still there it's fixable later i fixed the glider and i kept flying so it was all good it wasn't really traumatic for me there were more traumatic moments when i was lower when i had some collapses that i felt like okay if this If the glider hasn't fixed itself or with my input, that's something that is definitely more traumatic than this situation. You may not call yourself crazy, but once you have a situation and the way you reacted and you talk to your friends and they tell you like, you crazy, then you realize you're just a part of that community that's crazy. And you deal with it. Wow. That's such a good way to put it, when you really put it in such simple words. Because we're

hanging out with similar people that are like us. We hear their stories and everything, and we relate to that. And we're getting further and further from the ordinary people that live their routines, their life routines. They're just going to tell you, like, I would never do that again. Got it. Let's talk about incident number two. Location and time and how did the day look and give us an overview of what it was. It was on the seventh day of the competition. For me, nothing really happened in the beginning where people are still in the training and getting used to conditions. This competition was a totally different story. It felt really safe. Organization was good and there were no problems. There

were no similarities to France. Everything seemed under control. The way they set the tasks, we could be more spread apart. And the terrain itself doesn't have many areas with ridges where we all had to fly the same way. So there were a lot of convergence lines. People were choosing different lines. So from the very beginning, it felt like a different competition for everyone, not just me. There were no injuries from the beginning. Which place and location and the name of the comp, if you're comfortable? This is Pegalajar, and it's in Spain. This is 2024 European championship. So good flying every day, safe flying every day. No collisions, maybe some touches. I know people don't report

those incidents, but when you talk to your friends after the comp, you could probably hear people say, yeah, I touched his wing tip or somebody close by, or I just slide through someone's wing below me. So there are touches here and there, but there weren't many serious collisions. at that competition. So this was probably sixth or seventh day of the comp. And another thermal, probably third or fourth thermal from the start, we had a gaggle going up in a really strong thermal. And this guy who collided with me was somebody who's flying a little more aggressive. People were telling me about him, even my teammates. which is nothing bad. It's part of learning. It's part of the experience. But he was a bit

aggressive. I wasn't really paying attention for him. He was making those triangle turns, not really a full circle, which you can imagine. He was just going really hard turn and then another edgy turn. So that's how he was flying because he was trying to hit the course. Flying like that in a gaggle was probably difficult for him. So at one point, my assumption is, that he needed to turn tighter than usual on already aggressive flying. And so he braked a little too much and he went into a negative spin. Once he lost control of the glider and the glider went into a stall, he kept the stall really. He was flying backwards, but with full control. He wasn't spinning or anything, just flying backwards.

But as he was probably 50 to 70 meters above me,

He didn't know that he was flying into me or any other pilot. And obviously, myself, I couldn't see him right from above. So I was just doing my thermal. And then I saw him at the very end again, maybe that 10th of a second before the hit. I looked up and I saw a glider flying backwards into my canopy. And then he hit me with his harness. It was probably like the... Let's say it wasn't really in the half of the wing. It was a little bit more on the side, but still that hit was different because he flew into it and got attached a little more with my glider. It wasn't really a

second or two comparing to the last collision I had. This lasted a little more. When he hit me from the top, we both lost control and started spinning. My glider felt okay, but it was in the spin. And I didn't realize how hard was that hit at the moment. At the very moment, I felt there's still a chance for us to untie. And so I can keep flying because I wasn't sure how much damage he did to the glider with the hit. So I remember the situation from France, which was only a year ago. I thought, I can't believe there's another collision with me. And this is

the seventh day of the competition. Seven days. times 140 competitors, that's a lot of numbers there. Statistically, we were already there for something to happen, but it didn't happen because everyone was flying really nice. They were not that aggressive as in France. They had plenty of room to keep positions, to try to play smarter than somebody else or to try their techniques. That day was a surprise for me to get hit because it was so calm and easy comparing to France where I was expecting for my turn. So when this guy hit me, I was still hoping that I'm going to be able to untie it and to keep flying. But at one point, we started spinning and he was still there. And then I saw that he threw his reserve because he

thought we were not going to detach. Maybe a second or two after he threw his reserve, he also pulled his glider, his harness from my canopy. He untied himself and started descending with the reserve. So I saw him still, because we were really high, probably more than 1,000 meters above sea level, above ground. I was thinking maybe my glider is still in good shape to fly. And I saw him with the reserve. I'm thinking, like, why would he throw the reserve so early? We had so much more time. But never mind. He didn't realize what was going to happen. So he took the safe method of just throwing a reserve at the beginning and see what happens. But then I realized that my wing was in really bad shape. There was no way I

was going to land with that wing because it was all messed up. I could see the holes from my... It felt like in cartoons... When somebody shoots you a parachute and then you look up and you see a big hole, that's pretty much what it looked like. I noticed I'm missing half of my lines. I think I had maybe four lines of B risers there. Everything else was snapped. When I realized I don't have lines, then I lost my last thinking of continuing with flight. and then i saw the holes and everything and then there was no doubt that i'm not gonna try to land with that wing or do

anything with it because it was spinning a little and so on so i just pretty much waited to see when i'm going to throw the reserve because it was nice and stable i wasn't spinning hard or anything i could spin for another 500 meters no problem I was looking down and saw olive fields everywhere. I saw a few pools, a few villages. Everything was still there because we were really high above. And I'm thinking like there's no point of waiting for too long because it's going to be a gamble anyway where I'm going to land. The winds were a little stronger in Spain. So I couldn't really land on one spot. I had to include the drag for the wing. And in that situation, it was very difficult to calculate all that stuff

to find a simple landing. So I'm thinking it's going to be a gamble anyway. If you throw it now or if you throw it 200 meters lower, it's pretty much going to be the same. You're still going to end up being probably lucky if you land a three or something. One interesting thing that happened before I throw the reserve is while we were still together, tied with hardness and wing, I made a full spin. It's like a backflip. which wasn't fast, it was really slow. It was a bit concerning because I don't know why it happened. Still don't know. I haven't seen that video close up to see when it happened. But it was a really slow and steady spin, like a backflip where at one point I just saw the sky. I was

thinking, I'm probably not going to stay like this. I hope I'm not going to stay and just fly down with my head first. But then obviously the harness and the gravity did a thing and I turned around. And I kept falling normally. At that moment, I think he pretty much detached from my wing. And then I saw them throwing a reserve. But from the story that I heard from this guy, he told me that he threw the reserve from the moment when we were tied together because he thought we were going to fall together. And he didn't know if I was unconscious or something. So he was

just thinking, let me throw the reserve. Even if we fall down together, my reserve is going to slower the impact on the ground. This backflip

Marko Milutinovic: thing, your canopy is still above you, right? It's just your harness which is flipping over. No, you're doing a full flip. With the harness,

if the harness is going up, you're doing a full flip. At one point, your head is down. You're looking at the sky and then you start turning around and you slowly see the olive fields again and the position is normalizing. That is something that I haven't really inspected

because this is something that happened while the accident already happened. So it didn't really have that importance to understand why I did that flip. But if somebody saw the video, whoever was watching it, he'd probably have a good and solid explanation for it. But it was interesting because I have never had that before, never experienced such thing before, to flip around with my harness. you do not tumble like it was not a tumbling maneuver with the triple c no right the wing was still above you and it was just your harness which was well i don't know that we were pretty much just about to detach so i have no idea in which position was winged it was hard to look at when we detached then i saw him

already flying with the reserve so i'm guessing maybe even that That drag that reserve created maybe changed my movement or anything. So those are little details that are not really important, but that was my first experience with such thing. And then to go back to when I was probably around 600 meters to 400 meters above ground level, when I decided to throw the reserve, there was no point to wait longer. I just threw the reserve and waited to see where I'm going to land and how it's going to happen. The reserve was this small angel from ozone, and it felt like it was already descending fast, maybe because I was now in the back end of this thermal. So maybe that even increased the descent a little. I

have no idea. But I was flying down pretty fast. I wanted to make sure I moved the glider a little and bring the glider closer to me so I can have a little more control of this rotation while in reserve. And that helped a little because when I put the glider in my, I pocketed the glider, most of the glider in my hand and in my lap, then I was still flying down and the wind was dragging me, dragging to those olive fields. And then I use my glider. If I move the glider a little bit to the left, it will create a little air pocket and it will it will change the direction of a spin to the

left. If I move it on the right, it will change the right. So that's how I was just moving left and right to make sure that I have a clear sight of when I'm going to land. I didn't want to just pocket my glider in my lap because that way I would be spinning and I could land facing backwards. So this was really useful. I realized while I was in the air, nobody told me that before. It's a good trick if you don't have a steerable reserve. I'm not sure if you can create that same air pocket or drag with your glider in every situation, but my situation was clear. It was glider

with my lines were tied to the harness and it was just perfectly balanced so I can move with my hand left or right. I looked in the direction where I was going to land and I was hoping to land on the olive tree because they were low enough. but it still would decrease the impact a little. And then I turned it. I land just between two olive trees and the land in Spain was really dry and stiff. So that hurt a bit, but I just kind of maybe twisted my ankle a little, but no serious injury. It was a hard impact on the ground because the wind was moving and it was a little tilted. Hill

was tilted a little on the side. So I wasn't really fortunate to hit the perfect ground with the green grass and the slope. It was totally opposite with really hard terrain. But again, the reserve is there just to save you from dying. Make sure you don't break anything. Yeah.

Marko Milutinovic: Sometimes in these situations, I wonder, we are being told about PLF so much in our lives and when you're flying this massive harnesses and huge wings and everything, there's no chance to execute a PLF a lot of times. That's something that all of us should consider. PLF does sound really good in theory, but when it comes to actually realizing it, it's a whole different situation. Oh yeah. And then those new harnesses. you have to

purchase the the top of the line ultra light reserves so you can actually fit two inside because they just change everything the shape of it the pockets are smaller the the capacity that it can take it's so much smaller that some people are not able to use their really nice steerable reserves anymore because they're heavy and they cannot fit the pocket So that's another thing. You're pretty much losing on your safety because of those little things you need to fly faster, which is not a good compensation. I was thinking at the time because my body had a really good steerable reserve. And now we have that reserve sitting somewhere in my house because we couldn't put in the glider. Both for me and him,

he's flying now this submarine and I'm flying gin race fight. Both gliders have smaller capacities and you have to buy a new expensive ultralight steerable reserve to fit one in. And the other one has to be a typical reserve, like square or something. Wow, that's so weird

Marko Milutinovic: because my Woody Valley XR7 can almost fit a tandem reserve in one compartment. That's the whole point. You're putting yourself in more

danger. You're flying more dangerously. You're flying in the gaggle with 140 people on the edge of the cloud. Everyone's fighting for the

good starting position. And people are going in and out of the cloud a little, cheating a bit, which everyone knows. And so we're exposing ourselves in more risk But at the same time, we're changing our equipment that is bringing us even more risk. Because with steerable, even though if you cannot really, just the parachute, like the reserve parachute, they can move left or right. Nothing else can save your life. That little left and right can save you from not going into a virus, electrical virus, or a lake. I don't know, whatever. So it's always good to have that sort of equipment. In competition racing, make sure you can afford all the top-of-the-line equipment and the newest durable

parachutes and everything else that comes with it. So let's say we are talking about, just for the curiosity of our listeners, for ones who are

Marko Milutinovic: planning to upgrade to submarine-style harnesses, does it make sense to have a steerable and an ultralight? Because rounds, of course, have their own safety and opening mechanism and everything, and square has pendulum stability, but steerables are steerables. So all of them have their own advantages and preferences, according to people. But what is the usual combination that you've seen work most often by or used most often by participants? I think this is a very universal opinion, but I think most of the competition pilots or any advanced paragliding

pilots would love to have one steerable reserve and one other kind of reserve, whatever's preferable. It can be square or round. It just gives you much more control over your landing and you have less descent. There are videos online. You can watch those newer reserves and everything. You can pretty much land on your tippy toes, just like when flying with a paraglider in a three to four meter headwind. Makes sense. So why falling without knowing what's going to happen, where you're going to land, how you're going to land? There are so many cases where people are dying because they threw the reserve and were just not lucky enough to get their reserve hooked onto a tree. Just landing between the

trees with a reserve, can deflate your reserve. I'm not sure if I'm using the right word, but it collapses your reserve in that thick line between the trees and you fall from 10 meters or so. And people were having some bad injuries or even deaths because of not being lucky to fall in the right place. And that's why I think the steerable reserve have a really good point and use case. No, 100%. I have deployed once. Thankfully, I

Marko Milutinovic: just came down with a very slow descent because it was windy as hell, but I landed in very thick tree cover. It did cross my mind that steerable reserves would have allowed me to go down to the plains. I could have gone down and tried somewhere else. It baffles my mind why aren't steerables preferred more than the other ones. Is it the opening mechanism or something? I think I'll have to bring a reserve expert on the show one day to talk about this. You should talk to some experts about reserves and raise that awareness with the pilots and your audience because it's an

important thing. It's not guaranteed that you're not going to mess up with a steerable reserve. Maybe you're just not that lucky. Maybe it's going to be your decision to turn where you shouldn't be turning. You could probably injure yourself badly and someone's going to say, You have better throw in the other reserve and just land wherever it happens. You could end up with less injuries, but it's still your decision. You know what I mean? At least you have a decision. Here is just you have no idea what's going to happen. And there are places that are not all places are the same. People were getting hurt in Mexico, I heard, because they have those thick tree lines with not much branches on top

where your reserve is. can tie around and save you. And then you go somewhere in Alps, there are probably a lot of trees or those olive trees in Spain. Every area has different characteristics and some areas are more friendly for reserves, some are not. So I think having an option with you when you have a reserve to make little movements, just little ones, still better than not having them at all. I don't understand when

Marko Milutinovic: there's so much advancement in science and tech these days with all the resources that humans have. Why can't we have something like base system in cross-country harnesses? It's so much safer and it's so much more convenient for all the pilots to just deploy that and take it from there. Then we're going into a different topic with the mentality and the sportsmanship and everything, how winners think. what they need,

why they choose such paths. And so it's a whole new philosophy, but people want to, people want to fly faster and they want, they don't have problem with compensation in safety. So far, it's the way it is. It's, uh, it, this is, this sport is young and it will go into many many different reviews and probably rules and who knows what's going to happen but it's probably going in a good direction when it comes to safety you know if you look at the formula one races the fastest slop in monza was 20 years ago so you can tell me that they don't have a new equipment or actually engines and everything that comes with with those cars that can go faster it just they created some rules and made

those cars go slower and safer. So that's maybe something like that is going to happen in paragliding. I'm not sure, but I'm seeing some improvements. It's not like they're going crazier than they were in history. 20 years ago, there was no FTV and people were falling because they didn't want to throw the reserve. They were giving their lives. The people were dying because they didn't want to throw the reserve because if they throw the reserve, they lose competition. If they fix the wing... FTV, it takes 25% of your race getting raised every day. So basically in four days, one task is discarded, the worst task that you have. So let's say in 10 days of a competition in a world championship,

you get a total of one full and three quarters of another day. Let's say you had a bad day and you had to throw a reserve. that day is going to be discarded and you're still in in a position to win the competition which is very important because it gives you a safety merge margin right and 20 years ago you had top pilots like top five pilots in the world a pilot died a swiss pilot died because he wanted so bad to fix his glider and to stay in the air so he don't lose the competition. So the rules are changing and they're going to make it better. It just takes time. And staying safe

Marko Milutinovic: during this transition is a choice that we all make for ourselves. So where you draw the line between risk versus reward, which is another topic that we're discussing on the show, is something that our listeners have to decide for themselves. But Marco, before I close up this conversation, I just want to understand from your perspective, you've been racing at the top level for quite a while. You've been under the canopy long enough to know where the triumphs are and where the tragedies are. These two incidents which have made you Reflect on how things proceed. Have they changed you as a pilot and do you wish to share some of that wisdom with other pilots that might want to be going down the

competition path or racing at the absolute top level with the world's best? Mid-airs, collisions, reserves, and everything that happens on

a top level comp or pretty much anywhere in flying. Take an impact on your mental image of the whole sport and safety in general, especially if you have family and especially if you were taken once, like I did in France, but then you're taking down another hit, you're taking another hit in Europe, then you started to think, is this a sign or should I stop? It's strange that it's happening two times in a row. And obviously it's creating a feeling that maybe I should miss another FAI1 competition, it's European and World Championships, because maybe they're too crowded and I'm going to avoid being hit. If I go to smaller competitions with maybe 70 pilots or so, which is definitely much more safer, less

people in the same terminals, and when they spread out, it's much safer to fly. You don't have to adopt your flying to the safety of flying in a gaggle. You are really flying on the level that you are expecting yourself to fly with the freedom that you have. You don't have to adjust your circle to other people. You can be more of yourself. That's something that is really bugging me at the time. Should I go to the bigger comps more or should I stay in the smaller comps? So when it sits for a little bit, not at the very moment, not even two days after, not even a

week when you come back home and everything, but when a few months pass by, And you don't have that much time for flying. Actually, when you're not flying as much, when you have more time for thinking and doing your everyday work and routines, then you think about it, you start making new decisions and creating new motivation. So it's difficult. I think everybody gets a hit from those experiences. Somebody comes back. Somebody never comes back as they were. Fortunately for me, I was never a top pilot where it can take my lifestyle with such a change, like deciding to stop flying because it's not my work. I don't live off paragliding or anything, and I was never that good. But it will be

interesting to hear what happens when top pilots have accidents like that because they also had situations where When you follow them on their social media or anything, you see that accident happens to everyone. So it'd be really interesting to hear how somebody will handle accident when he lives off paragliding, for example. That would be an interesting story because for me, it's much easier to stop, change, step down to another wing. But for somebody who's maybe making money of it, it could be a different story. Got it, man. Thank you for

Marko Milutinovic: sharing your story with so much transparency. That gives our listeners a perspective. Just for the knowledge of our listeners, you are the best from the rest. You have been competing at the top level for quite a while. I do not agree with the fact that you're not a top pilot. You're rubbing shoulders with some of the biggest names in the sport, although you're not making your money from it. Still, I don't have that much experience

as some other pilots. I can say that I'm doing well. for the experience that I have. For the time I'm investing into sport, I'm doing okay, but obviously there are better pilots. I belong to probably top five pilots in my country, so I'm a decent pilot, but I'm always going to put the line between myself and people who are flying for $500 hours a year, and they're really taking it seriously. Wise words, Marco, wise words. And

Marko Milutinovic: I think on that note, are there any future plans on how to avoid these, or you're like, just go out, have fun, and then life will take care of itself like how everything else is, basically? Well, see, as I mentioned earlier, I will see how it goes in the next few competitions. I'm a little

scared of those crowded competitions. for 100 plus pilots is definitely making me nervous. I'll see if it makes me nervous and if I don't enjoy it anymore and if I'm constantly thinking about being hit by someone or just looking around and not thinking about flying, putting my safety first out there, then I'm probably going to stop doing that. I'm not going to stop flying or competing. But that's what's going on in my mind at the moment. Is it worth it going to comps with 150 pilots, 140 pilots or less? And is it going to be joyful? That's the whole point. And I'm going to test it on a few more comps and see how it's going. And then I'll probably get some from it. I think we have come a full circle when you

Marko Milutinovic: said the words, is it going to be joyful? Because a lot of top pilots keep on saying, and it's a reality to life as well. As long as you're having fun, you should continue it. But the moment you take the fun factor out of it is the moment you need to put a switch on it and figure out. When you see

top level pilots bombing out and how they throw their helmets and how they react when they land and you see their faces when they land, let's say a 10th in goal or maybe in the first 20s and he's expecting to land in top five. They're frustrated. They're not happy that day. For the competition pilots, there's definitely some joy taken already from them because they are expected to win. They want to move in that ladder on the world VPRS, which is the rank of the paragliders in this FI. The more they move up the rank, the better they are. And there's definitely not much joy, not much joy as much as you will see in some recreational pilots. Recreational pilots can land after 50 kilometers and be really

happy after 150 and still be happy. And you don't see that much disappointment. In the competition, you see a lot of disappointment. You don't see happy faces anymore. There are happy faces, but that's when people land in goal and they're probably placed in the top 20 or 30. Everyone else who gets in the goal, they just like land, start packing their glider. They're not even smiling.

They get the feeling they lost the game. No one's happy when they're losing. Damn, bro. You just brought on a whole different side of

Aninder: competition world to the audiences here today. You see the world-class football players and they lose a match, they're not happy, even though they have everything. So that's the same in paragliding. If you're on a high-level competition and you're not placed where you think you

should be placed, you're going to see a lot of joy in my face if I land 20th in goal.

20th or 30th, it's because that's where I imagine myself being, and you'll see me happy if I land there. You'll see me extremely happy if I land top 10 or top 20. But if I land 50, 60, 70,

I'm not gonna be happy. I'm just gonna land there, probably get some drinks if there's anything left in gold, because if you wait, you don't get anything. So there's no joy. Got it, bro. I always see a smile on your face, regardless of what it is. I think you are picking your poison of

Aninder: choice. No, you're happy. You're happy after a couple hours, right? But those first moments when you land and you're 20 minutes behind, you're

thinking, like, 20 minutes? You cannot laugh. Sometimes you can laugh, but it all depends. They're all taking it seriously. People are, in our country, even most of the countries, they have to put a lot of effort. to make it into a national team. Think about it in France or some areas where they have so many people just waiting and trying really hard. They're easily replaceable. If they start losing it, there's gonna be some other French pilot who's gonna take your spot and you're not gonna go into a competition. Somebody else is gonna go. So they're trying really hard to stay in the national team and to stay there. Obviously, they're not gonna be happy if they have a bad year because they're gonna be

replaced by someone else. Indeed. I think very few of them are blessed ones to have all of this, the opportunity like the Frenchies have to make

Marko Milutinovic: it big. But then it comes with so much more baggage as well. Exactly. That's why we have few disciplines and everybody gets to choose where

they enjoy the most. If they don't enjoy it, they can try the other one, switch it to hike and fly, soaring in Morocco or whatever feels good for people. But they should try everything. This competition level of flying is definitely going to make everyone a much better pilot. So there's no doubt if you get into a competition that you're going to learn a lot. And why not having that experience on a small comp, enjoying where people are not so crazy about winning. You can still enjoy in everything that a competition is giving. You can still get into a goal. You can still finish the race. And it's a great feeling. If you feel like you want to get deeper into it and make a deeper dive into a competition, then you go for

it. If you feel like it's not for you, Then you just take a step back or stay in those recreational competitions, the sport wings competitions, which is the sea gliders. Those are cool, very cool comps. They are different now. I'm not sure what's going to happen when they split the sport class and the CCC class. They're going to make it. That's what I heard. It's a rumor. But I heard they're going to make a different ranking of pilots. That list that I told you about, the VPRS, which is like an ATP in tennis, when they make the VPRS list that is different for the sport class pilots and the CCC pilots, that's going to change things because pilots who cannot make it to the number one in CCC will feed their

chance into going into a sport class. And that's going to bring more competition into a C class. But at the moment, C class is really nice to compete in. On that note, Marco, massive thanks for coming on board and piloting Atlas, man. It's been an absolute pleasure and honor to have

Marko Milutinovic: you share your story with such unfiltered honesty. And I hope our audiences can take something from this and make their own decisions wisely. Fingers crossed, man. Love your motivation. So nice to see you again and cannot wait to share the sky with you one more time whenever possible. Thank you, Andy. Thanks for inviting me.